ORLANDO -- Saying the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) is close to "utter ruin" and possibly extinction, the New Wineskins Association of Churches http://www.newwineconvo.com/ on February 8 laid the groundwork for a group of congregations to leave the denomination together, probably to join the Evangelical Presbyterian Church (EPC). http://www.epc.org

A vote on whether to leave likely will be taken the evening of Feb. 9.

ORLANDO -- Saying the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) is close to "utter ruin" and possibly extinction, the New Wineskins Association of Churches http://www.newwineconvo.com/ on February 8 laid the groundwork for a group of congregations to leave the denomination together, probably to join the Evangelical Presbyterian Church (EPC). http://www.epc.org

A vote on whether to leave likely will be taken the evening of Feb. 9.

But New Wineskins leaders opened their meeting in Orlando Feb. 8 by referring to the EPC as kindred theological spirits -- "it's like meeting cousins we never knew we had," said Carmen Fowler, a pastor from South Carolina and the New Wineskins' vice-moderator.

The EPC is preparing to create a new non-geographic presbytery into which congregations leaving the PC(USA) would be admitted, for a period of five years. The EPC's General Assembly would have to approve such an idea in June, but "all indications are that we will step forward and begin a journey with you," Paul Heidebrecht, moderator of the EPC's General Assembly, told the New Wineskins.

The EPC, created in 1981, now has about 200 churches and 70,000 members -- so for it, an influx of members from the larger PC(USA) would be significant.

 About 130 of 151 congregations that have formally endorsed the New Wineskins constitution have sent representatives to this meeting, although the crowd -- there are more than 500 registered participants -- is considerably larger than that.

The New Wineskins leadership team has said it recognizes two faithful options for Presbyterians who are convinced the PC(USA) is lost in the wilderness: to leave altogether, or to stay and try to reform the denomination from within.

But the drumbeat at the start of this meeting was all about departure.

"The prognosis is clear," said Parker Williamson, editor emeritus of The Layman, speaking of the PC(USA). "This denomination will soon be dead. You see what we have now is little more than a carcass consisting of real estate, endowments, sticks and stones. This dysfunctional ecclesiastical organization cannot be called a church. The marks of the church are gone," and what's left "dare not call itself a church -- certainly not the true church."

Speakers described both what they would be leaving -- a dysfunctional, theologically-bereft PC(USA) -- and their vision of the kind of mission-focused, grassroots-driven denomination that, together, they could build.

"Dream the dream of the Presbyterian church of which you yearn to be a part," encouraged Gerritt Dawson, a pastor from Baton Rouge and New Wineskins' co-moderator.

Some key elements of the conversation involved:

Evangelical unity. "It is essential for those who are truly evangelical to align themselves with others who are likewise," said Luder Whitlock, http://www.ttf.org/index/about/whitlock/ executive director of The Trinity Forum and the former longtime president of Reformed Theological Seminary.

Evangelicals in the PC(USA) have been held in theological and cultural captivity, Whitlock said, trying unsuccessfully to reform the church from within because "we want this church to honor the Lord."

But the PC(USA) is on the brink of "utter ruin," he said. And Whitlock offered this message to the hierarchy of the PC(USA) -- what Moses said to Pharaoh: "Let my people go."

Essential tenets. Dawson spoke of the "joy of subscription," of requiring Presbyterian leaders to list core beliefs they can affirm. The PC(USA) has historically referred to essential tenets but been unwilling to define them.

Dawson spoke of the pleasure and challenge of playing within the marked boundaries in a game such as tennis -- and added that no one in professional tennis says, "I believe in the rules but I don't know what they are."

Dawson compared the core beliefs of the EPC and New Wineskins on issues such as faith in Jesus Christ and the Triune God. By listing these essential beliefs, he said, both groups are saying, "Where is your heart of hearts, who are you, what matters to you most?"

History. Williamson compared the Fundamentalist-Modernist debate of the 1920s to the controversial report last year of the Theological Task Force on the Peace, Unity, and Purity of the PC(USA). Both involved compromises, he contended, orchestrated by liberals to win over moderates for the sake of keeping the denomination's unity intact.

"The kingdom of God is at hand," Williamson said. "Repent and believe the gospel," or "no political deals will do it."

Property. Some congregations trying to depart the PC(USA) are scuffling with the denomination over whether to take their property with them -- and among the New Wineskins, there's certainly resentment of that. Williamson referred to the recent vote of Montreat Church to leave, by a 92 percent vote, and said the presbytery is planning "to fortify the loyal 8 percent and seize Montreat's property."

New Wineskins co-moderator Dean Weaver -- speaking of the possibility of aligning with the EPC -- said, "Wouldn't it be really cool to be in an environment that had at its basis trust?"

He paused a few seconds, as the audience burst out with laughter and applause.

"As opposed to the (property) trust clause?"

Women's ordination. The PC(USA) ordains women as ministers, elders, and deacons; in the EPC, it's less clear. Weaver, a Pittsburgh pastor, has said the EPC does not consider the ordination of women an "essential" of faith and will leave it up to local churches to decide what to do.

Fowler referred to those who are considering leaving for the EPC, but who say, "Well, what about our women?"

Fowler said she wouldn't exactly say, "Just trust us." But she pointed to herself and said of the EPC leadership team: "They've met me."

She added: "There is certainly work to be done. ... Neither one of us is saying, `Oh, gee, we know exactly what the new thing will look like.'" But "it sure does seem as if God is propelling us in the same direction."

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wrote on February 13, 2007

Title: ... I think, Matt, you have misunderstood my remarks. I was not attempting to cast stones. I am an evangelical Christian, and have good friends in New Wineskins. Nor was I making any deprecating comments about their faith. Nor did I ever contend that they 'fear man' -- I am really unclear how you came to that conclusion. The point that I was making, which you also helped me make, is that life is not always so clearcut. You claim 'They are running from nothing but are running to God.' Are you sure? Is life that simple? I have found that often it is not. Consider the book of Job. Is it a clearcut simple explanation of life and the struggles of life? No. Instead, it is a complex picture of life with many convoluted theological meanings that scholars cannot fully agree on what it says. My experience and scripture tell me that those who try to make things seem so simplistic, often ignore the complexities of the cosmic warfare that is being waged. As Paul said, 'For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then we will see face to face. Now I know only in part; then I will know fully, even as I have been fully known.' Indeed, none of us has a clear picture of what is really happening in this ongoing struggle in the Presbyterian Church. None of us have the heavenly view of the battle that is being waged between God and the forces of evil. No, it is not so clear to me that leaving the denomination is merely running to God. I only raise the question, is that all it is? Or is it running from the cosmic struggle? Or is it both? I know the devil does not attack us with blatant attacks, but tries to cloud the issues, making what is not God's will seem so good and inviting. Consider the temptations of Jesus in the wilderness. The devil would like us to use simplistic either or thinking. C.S. Lewis greatly captured the tactics of the evil one in his great book THE SCREWTAPE LETTERS. I think every Christian should read it, so we all understand what we are up against. All I know, and scripture affirms this, that the evil will not rest. He will continue his battle against the faithful. He will use everything he can to get us to abandon God's will. (See Revelation.) And the one's I have talked to who are leaving or considering leaving the denomination, are all making the same remarks -- the same remarks I have heard them make over the last several years -- they are 'tired of the fighting.' That sounds to me like they are running away, that they have given up any hope for the future of the PC(USA). I am thankful, Matt, that you have chosen to stay in the PC(USA), that you are committed, as I am, to seeing us regain our vision for God's plan for the PC(USA), that you will remain faithful to God's revelation in scripture, and that you will stand alongside all of us who dearly desire to faithfully follow Jesus Christ as both Savior and Lord of our lives. I pray for God's blessing and anointment to be upon you, Matt, in your ministry. And I am overjoyed to serve alongside such a devoted brother in Christ. Grace and peace to you dear friend.

wrote on February 12, 2007

Title: Just about as wrong as it gets As one who is staying as part of those in New Wineskins who will remain in the PCUSA but who knows many who have left and others who may well leave, Dave McCann's statements concerning them is about as wrong as one can be. They are running from nothing but are running to God. After much prayer, they have decided that (for them) to 'contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints' (Jude 3) means leaving the small community of faith (PCUSA) in order to cling to the Body of Christ, knowing it will likely be costly to them. For you to say otherwise reveals your ignorance of them, their faith, and of the cost they are willing to bear in this fight to be faithful. As I said, I am one of many orthodox believers in New Wineskins who are remaining but I do not cast stones at those leaving for I have seen their heart and know they fear only disappointing God. They do not fear man (Louisville) as you contend.

wrote on February 12, 2007

Title: ... I have a couple of observations. First, when New Wineskins was created, the language they used in their charter was somewhat schismatic, so I am not the least bit surprised at their recent actions to leave the denomination. Second, and this is specifically addressed to those churches and pastors who are leaving the denomination. The devil now knows what it takes to get you to run away. Be assured, he will not rest. He will continue to chase you. He will continue to bring up new issues in your new denomination to get you to run away again. Why? Because this is his tactic to inhibit your ability to serve God with your whole being. I too am tired of the fighting. I too am tired of standing strong for what I understand the Bible and our Confessions teach us. But I also know that it is in my weakness, my tiredness, that Christ is made strong in me. It is then that I am able to withstand the wiles of the devil. But if I run, the devil will keep chasing me. Somewhere in the life of every Christian, we must take a stand for Christ in direct oppposition to satan. And we must stand strong, every day of our lives, until Christ calls us home to God's kingdom. This is tiring work standing up to the constant assualt of the evil one. But it is in our weakness that Christ is made strong in us, and the devil can never stand up to the power of God in Jesus Christ our Lord. So, to those who choose to leave, I ask, when will you choose to take your stand and remain steadfast for the rest of your earthly days?

wrote on February 10, 2007

Title: ... I am writing as one who has long been involved in the New Wineskins workgroups and one who is part of the New Wineskins Association of Churches. I pastor a church that will remain in the PCUSA, as many of the churches in New Wineskins will (don't overlook that). I also just returned from the most recent meeting in Orlando. One thing I think we need to always strive to do is speak truthfully, even when we disagree with another's actions. To Nathan Lamb, Some pastors have left unilaterally. Also, many elders, deacons and others have left unilaterally. (I am wondering what the membership loss numbers will look like in 2008 with this individual exodus.) A decision to leave should always be made by pastors and congregations individually, though I am sure that doesn't always happen. I have heard many stories where that has been done. Don't assume otherwise. To Carlos Wilton, I would think both the PCUSA and local churches would tell you they believe they are seeking to do Jesus' will and both believe they view the property as belong to Christ. They both believe God is on their side. One is wrong in how this is being handled. To David Bower, The New Wineskins started their study of how to be more faithful in a Reformed, connectional, missional church in the 21st century 5 or 6 years ago. The EPC started their study on the same topics over 3 years ago. As they each followed after God's leading they found each other and started looking at the possibility of doing something together. The EPC has responded to questions and requests. It is unfair to characterize these brothers and sisters in Christ as you have. They were two Reformed groups, both sensing God's call in a direction that led them to one another. Everyone should take a serious look at the structure of New Wineskins. I truly believe the PCUSA as a whole should move in this very direction. I can remember how in 2005 our Stated Clerk sent out a letter asking for suggestions on how our denomination could move in new ways. There was even a list given by him on what needed to be done. We were holding our first convocation the very day that letter was sent out and we all had to laugh as we read the note because we were meeting to present a structure that met every one of his listed needs. Our Stated Clerk was sent a copy of what New Wineskins had developed in response to his request and, as far as I know, no one heard anything back.

wrote on February 10, 2007

Title: Pastor My observation is that several if not many New Wineskins churches are being led out of the PCUSA by their elders and sessions, not by their pastors. It seems as if congregations are taking their pastors with them.

wrote on February 09, 2007

Title: ... I have a question. Why is it that when a pastor decides he/she wants to leave the denomination, they always seem to take their congregation with them? Are people afraid that their credentials will not get them a church in the EPC/PCA? I don't think there is anything preventing a single individual from disaffiliating from our denomination, joining another, and then going through that denomination's call process. It seems like a major violation of professional ethics to lead an entire congregation out of the PC(USA) so that one will have convenient employment when they decide to break fellowship with the PC(USA). But who cares about ethics these days?

wrote on February 09, 2007

Title: ... 'Some congregations trying to depart the PC(USA) are scuffling with the denomination over whether to take their property with them...' writes Leslie Scanlon ('Leaving on their minds: New Wineskins to vote Feb. 9'). Reflecting on these words, I wonder: Wouldn't it change the whole tenor of this debate, if - instead of speaking of 'our' property or 'their' property - we would speak, instead, of 'Christ's property'? Our Confessions and Form of Government still do speak of him as head of the church, right?

wrote on February 09, 2007

Title: Pastor, Grace Presbyterian Church, Lanham My late grandfather, an evangelist in the Church of God, had a term for what the EPC is doing. He called it sheep stealing. Those of us who grew up in Virginia have another term for it: tacky. If folks prayerfully and thoughfully discern that they are being called away from the PC(USA)flock, so be it. Once they've left the flock it's prudent that they find another body of Christians. It is, however, inappropriate for the EPC to begin picking them off before they even leave.

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