Reader Response :
Perhaps it would be more fruitful for all sides to abandon facile historical analogies altogether. They are great attention-getters, but they seldom hold up as serious argument. Liberals are not fascists, and conservatives are not the Taliban.
Reader Response :
Johnathan, you bring about a valid point and the same can be said about abortion. The PCUSA has often spend time not wanting to offend people or appear to be very confused as to where to stand, like the Redwoods ruling regarding Jane Spahr. We are like the Church of Laodicea. We are not hot nor are we completely cold. We're just lukewarm. What did Jesus say about Laodicea?
Reader Response :
The difference is that divorce is still viewed as a sin, yes, forgivable, but always an evil, even if the lesser of two evils. But few are advocating homosexual behavior as a forgivable sin; they are pushing it as a justice issue, as a part of God’s good creation. There is a huge difference. The gay advocates can’t have it both ways: is it a grace issue, or an issue of justice?
Response By :
Tom Hobson -
Belleville , Illinois - September 1, 2010
Reader Response :
Although I agree with Tom's article, I also think Christine Kooi makes a very valid point. Divorce is a scandal to the Body of Christ and conservatives/evangelicals in the PC(USA) should show at least as much concern about that sin as about homosexuality. To be blunt, this is something I have missed in conservative circles in our denomination and it weakens our moral authority to stand against homosexual sin. It is true, as Tom says, that there is no major argument about divorce in our denomination. But I think that is because we have essentially accepted the practice and find it too awkward to do anything about it. Certainly, that has been my experience, where congregations that would never ordain homosexuals do have divorced elders and of course some (many?) congregations have called divorced men and women as pastors. On this question, how different are we from the culture at large? It is hard for me, at least, to discern a difference.
Response By :
John Erthein -
Erie , PA - September 1, 2010
Reader Response :
Ha! I agree completely that this is all to self-absorbed and the end was actually not a "happy ending" for me. I was left still waiting for her to discover truth, become secure in her own skin and begin to grow through giving of herself. There were no revelations in this movie - just "boy gets girl" with beautiful scenery.
Response By :
Barbara Jean Havens -
New Richmond , Ohio - September 1, 2010
Reader Response :
I find your letter one that actually reflects what I see from you and those that want to change the churches stand regarding sexual morals. I also find it rather ironic that you mentioned what Paul said in Romans, which if you read it, the first sin mentioned was Adultery, then the others followed in order. The true corner dwellers now are those that have left the gay lifestyle or are seeking to do so. The liberals in the PCUSA treat them as they have leprosy. How much time have you spent with them to listen with an open heart about how Christ has changed some of them and for others they state they leave the lifestyle because Jesus said "If you love me, obey my commandments." Those commandments include adultery & fornication, which means anything outside of the bond of the union of a man and a woman, the definition of marriage. Paul even spoke about his own weaknesses and wished it was taken from him but it wasn't. For some, that desire want be because Christ call us to be obedi... ...Read Full Response
Reader Response :
Tom, if you studied history and truly understood that National Socialism was BIG GOVERNMENT. Nazi Government had control of most everything similar to communism. That's a huge difference from what we see with conservatives in the U.S. You have associated Glenn Beck and many of us that are against the policies of this administration, with the Nazis. Yet we want less government and realize that the problems in this nation are due to the nation, which includes us Christians, from falling away from God. When the Church returns to standing for the truth in the scripture, that will change the hearts of man.
I am most offended that you sit in judgement of us yet you call us judgemental. You use your pulpit to have government policies like welfare and healthcare because you believe that's what Christ would do. Hmmm. You need to stop mingling your liberal faith into the government. You also chastise your fellow Presbyterians and Christians for not changing their stands on homosexuali... ...Read Full Response
Reader Response :
Tom why this constant confusion? Glenn Beck is not part of the Confessing Church movement in the Presbyterian Church. He is a Mormon. And the Confessing Church movement, in the Presbyterian Church, was born out of the need to once again confess Christ. Isn't the reformed tradition a confessing tradition?
And it wasn't just a fight in Germany between state and church, although it was that, it was a fight between those who would truly confess Jesus Christ and those who would not. And it is well known that although the German Christians, in opposition to the confessing church, were nationalist they were also liberal. They rejected the saving cross of Jesus Christ, they made Jesus a noble human hero, and they elevated nature to the level of divinity.
And if you stop and think about it, we are moving, as Christians, not Mormons, to a place where church and state are going to collide over what Christians proclaim and the state insists on. But only by proclaiming the Lordship of Jesus Christ... ...Read Full Response
Reader Response :
Jesus was more blunt about divorce than homosexual behavior because divorce was hotly debated in his day, while homosexual behavior was indisputable sin for Jews, an opinion which Jesus would have sounded off against if he disagreed (as he does on divorce). Today, we are forced to be as blunt about homosexual behavior as Jesus was on divorce, because homosexual behavior is what is now being hotly disputed.
Response By :
Tom Hobson -
Belleville , Illinois - September 1, 2010
Reader Response :
Well, I really don't know what the fuss is all about. There are an estimated 500,000 Muslims in New York City, about 1,000 of whom are New York's Finest, the NYPD. On a pie-chart, these Muslims (Sufi, Sunni and Shiite) constitute 3.4% of the religious folks in the city. And, of interest is a yellow slice of 34.5% of "other" religions. God knows what these others are: a flock of Yoruba, a bevy of Jains, a gig of Sikhs, a posse of Pentecostals, a sonority of Buddhists, a hubbub of Hindus. In bold relief are Roman Catholics, topping the charts with a whopping 52.5% of the religious population. And, did you know that these same Roman Catholics were forbidden to practice their religion in the city until 1777? But the Jews were ok'd by 1654. Never can tell about those Dutch and English Protestants, can you? Opening doors to Jews in New York City, way back 1654? And the immigrants weren't even European Jews? They were 23 Brazilian Jews (Latino, o my) from Recife. Today, the Jews ... ...Read Full Response
Reader Response :
As regards sexual morality, what Jesus had to say about divorce was anything but "veiled." Yet curiously one seldom hears from PCUSA conservative quarters the same level of fulmination and invective about divorce that they issue about homosexuality, about which Christ had rather less to say and which one suspects is less prevalent in the Presbyterian population than divorce. You're right, Rev. Hobson, we all pick and choose our Jesuses.
Reader Response :
Congregational change and transformation in the older mainline church usually involves two presuppositions. That the clergy or leaders involved desire change or a new paradigm of doing "church", and that the average church folks in the pews desire the same. On those cases there exists a disconnect from current reality.
Most clergy are trained and educated to be "system-administrators" of the polity of the system, in essence to carry on what has historically been. Flexbility, thinking outside the box type of thinking is neither rewarded or encouranged by the system. Church people by and large, especially the older they get, resist change and transformation. And are only more than happy to support and fund that which has always been.
Given a clear choice some churches when faced by change or die, embrace the latter and a process of "hospice care" needs to be developed to bring those houses of worship to place they need to be. For those who do not wish to die, they need to... ...Read Full Response
Reader Response :
Many thanks, Dave, for your thoughtful response to the debate about the Muslim Community Center presence near ground zero. It is an inspiring reminder of the need for Presbyterians to make the case for religious freedom. Christians aspiring for peace need not be cowed by charges of being naive. We remember the story of the cross and Easter morning.
Reader Response :
Tom, the issue is not “our laws.” The issue is that Jane Spahr continues to give the phallic symbol to Jesus, who reaffirms (as does Paul) the one-flesh union of a man and a woman taught in the Torah as God’s bottom-line on sexual expression. Jack Rogers and the others you allude to have failed to do justice to the facts on this subject.
Response By :
Tom Hobson -
Belleville , Illinois - August 25, 2010
Reader Response :
Tom I think a more helpful name might be confused. Jesus healed the woman and the Torah said nothing about not healing on the Sabbath. That was just a made up rule. Now about the difference between what Jane is doing and Jesus was/is doing. Jesus heals that which is broken. Jane affirms with ritual the brokenness.
Reader Response :
What could be more Christian than for us to support the efforts of the Cordoba Initiative and the Islamic Center in NYC? I hope that our PCUSA Stated Clerk and Moderator will declare our support -- this is exactly what the world needs to hear from our corner of the church.
Response By :
Carl vom Eigen -
Tarpon Springs , FL - August 25, 2010
Reader Response :
When I read Dr. Wheeler's article, I immediately sat down in front of my laptop and proceeded to write a response. My response was one filled with indignation and questions regarding her assumptions. One can obviously point to the small number of courses required to become a CLP in the denomination, but those who entered into the process didn't establish the need for only eight courses -- the denominantion did. But, to look only to having been enrolled in only eight courses is a bit short-sighted, or myopic.
One is able cite the Dubuque CLP Student Handbook as indicating the number of hours required to study and prepare for the respective courses, but the figures cited are in reality minimums, not maximums. Having completed the UDTS CLP program in 2006, I can attest that more than the minimum time that has been thrown into the discussion is required to complete the readings, do the assignments, and to participate fully in the online learning experiences provided by UDTS and by P... ...Read Full Response
Reader Response :
Has anyone thought to forward these thoughts to Bruce Reyes Chow? It seems that a former moderator of the General Assembly might rise above the kind of fray described in this BLOG. Does it not go with the territory of elected leadership to set the example in terms of how to manifest anger and/or keep it under control? Those who have watched this denomination overtly walk away from Biblical authority would not do well following Chow's example as he expressed himself at the homosexual rally in San Francisco last week. Do we folks in the pew have a right to expect our highest level of leadership to behave differently than those who might choose to vent their spleen in a letter to the Layman? It seems if we follow Chow well, more letters will come as those described here in this BLOG and they will have good company as they follow the example of a former "leader".
Reader Response :
There are a number of factors, social, economic, cultural, and demographic that now lead to two issues for PCUSA clergy employment; deflation of compensation across the church in most full time positions, and the trend for employing churches to move the tradtional Associate Pastor calls to full or part time CE postions with/without benefits, or do away with the position all together.
But my guess is that the bi-vocational or CLP type clergy present a management challenge for the local presbytery and the national church. A class or group of professionals not necessarily tied to the BOP in either retirement or health care, hense somwehat less, shall we say senstive, to matters of denominational flux and pressures. In essence a class of clergy with vocational options not tied to seeking their next call up the food-chain or hanging on to 65 at 1.25% of base per year.
Reader Response :
The sky isn't falling, though things are changing, and seriously changing in our culture and all around the world. Yes, I agree, there will always be "denominational" structures of some sort or the other - human beings are social; we are joiners and we need fellowship. And there will be, for sure, Presbyterian type churches, both in style (open-minded and welcoming and committed to social justice) and in faith (serious about Scripture and tradition and worship centered in the sovereignty of God).
I think those who've made LGBT issues the Rubicon beyond which one cannot go have done themselves a great disservice. Luke 21 and our Lord's comments about the brevity of the Temple, already by then a thousand years of spiritual and cultural importance, remind us that what we build, and even what God builds (e.g. the Temple) changes in the tides of time. Jesus urges us to be calm and loving, and to put our heart into the heart of God, and not into the things we build, or even the things God h... ...Read Full Response
Response By :
Tom Eggebeen -
Los Angeles , CA - August 11, 2010
Reader Response :
As one who baptized a young woman during our Easter Sunrise service under the St. John's bridge let me just say that waders are a great aid to worship.
Alan
Reader Response :
As someone who grew up and was first ordained in the Diciples of Christ, I do miss the sound of the water in the service of baptism (perhaps this is why I use and encourage the use of three handfulls of water when baptizing, given that it makes the water visible to the congregation), though I have often said that I don't mind not having to change clothes in the middle of a Sunday service to immerse someone! However, I do take issue with the notion of using the baptismal font each week (in Lent or otherwise) with the pouring of water at the time of the Declaration of Pardon. I have seen it done in worship. However, it goes against the historic practice in Reformed worship of making use of the sacramental elements only when the sacraments are actually being administered. We would not parade in bread and wine and place them on the Table unless there was an actual sharing in the Lord's Supper. Neither should we do it with water and the baptismal font.
Reader Response :
With all due respect, this piece strikes me as of the "O Give Me A Break" genre of literature. Appealing to Paul's teaching on marriage and celebacy as the basis for sending two contradictory reports, one dealing with "sexual minorities," is simply irresponsbile use of the name of Paul. In addition, an Assembly committed to the removal of "fidelity and chastity" from the Book of Order (something that clearly smacks of Paul) is a sign to me that Paul, along with the Law, Prophets, and Gospels, was thoroughly rejected by this General Asssembly.
Reader Response :
Web letter1 08-10-10
re: CLPS … top rung? (pub. April 19, 2010)
Recently I heard of seven tentmakers staffing an urban church, and of seven laypeople who intentionally chose an urban church for neighborhood renewal. The latter have seminary degrees but not ordination so they really do not need a preacher/teacher. It seems to me also with the death of George Webber of N.Y. Seminary that the ecumenical/theological training he offered to laypeople with day jobs at competitive rates on nights and weekends trained clergy and laity — especially ethnic minorities and women for leadership in their home congregation and area.
Joyce L. Manson, H.R.
Seattle, Wash.
Reader Response :
Jack: While I think it was a significant mistake for Palestinians not to be consulted on this paper and they very much need to be heard on the issues, I question your statement that "Palestinian Christians, who are the most affected by the implications of the paper." They are more affected by our theology on Jews and Christians than the children in our Sunday schools who have a Jewish parent, our members who are married to a Jewish person, our congregations, many of whom are in close working relationships with neighboring Jewish congregations? This paper affects lots and lots of folks within and outside our denomination. From where I sit in the parish, no one group can or should be described as being more "affected" than another.
Reader Response :
The break-up of a denomination does not have to be a cause for weeping and gnashing of teeth. The Church of Rome fought sometimes violently against the Reformation from which the Presbyterians were formed. This is a chance for both liberal and conservative congregations to form new associations and relationships within the One Body of Christ, that are probably more effective in proclaiming the Gospel than PCUSA. Christ's Body is not breaking up, a human institution that no longer serves a purpose is. Christ's Body is diverse for a reason: to most effectively reach more people with the Good News!
Reader Response :
I always like to say it is a Constitution and Form of Govt., not a suicide pact. Each church and individual must process in their own minds and hearts the implications of any GA acts or change of polity. If the national church or denominational structure should vanish overnight would you cancel church or worship the following Sunday? Of course not, the Body of Christ goes on. Kids still will go to Sunday school and coffee will be served after church. Though many E.Ps and staffs will be looking for jobs, and I think that's the great anxiety in the church now.
As for the PCUSA, the national structure or some form of association will survive regardless of any matter with sex or politics of ordination. Post collapse of the national church, if there is one, the vast majority of denomination will movei into some form of organic union with the UCC, some churches will go Unitarian, given the syncratic nature of current theology, others will find other like minded folks to associate... ...Read Full Response
Reader Response :
It's fascinating to read Michael Lindvall's essay. I recently have read Chabon's The Jewish Policeman's Union and Felier's Moses in America. Chabon sent me to find "the Red Heifer" which took me to Numbers 19: 1-10 -which led to Blau's article THE RED HEIFER:
A BIBLICAL PURIFICATION RITE IN RABBINIC LITERATURE Numen 14 no 1 Mr 1967, p 70-78.ISSN:0029-5973.
It's wonderful to be so well retired from my pastoral ministry that
there is time to find such things!
Reader Response :
Dear Editor:
As I read the article, "Who will be the last Presbyterian?" by Bill Tammeus in The Presbyterian Outlook, his "ideas for turning this ship around" sound like a Presbyterian vaccination against the irrelevancy virus that is afflicting most mainline denominations. Trouble is the writer wants to inoculate the church against Christian faith that demands repentance, humility, obedience and reliance on the power of God to transform. In place of the historic Christian faith he wants to put his thinly disguised political agenda, or what the writer euphemistically calls "faith's eternal values." The first of those values is, of course: "The fight over gays and lesbians is over." Outlook readers are well aware that the fight over the authority of Scripture ("somehow divinely inspired" according to the writer) is far from over. Nor is the fight over biblical standards of sexual conduct for our church leaders over, unless Mr. Tammeus is suggesting that the voice of 173 presbyteries sho... ...Read Full Response
Reader Response :
The modern delemma of the Western Protestant church is that it draws its water from the same well as scientific secuarlism as a philosophic construct. The hallmarks of such are self-doubt, and the deconstruction of objective truth and moral certanty. In its place we have have cultural, moral, and ethical relativism. The end result is that many pastors and churches have become the unconverted, preaching to the unconvinced. The PCUSA at times is not always sure of what it stands for, and what it says at certain times. Jesus Christ and the Bible do not share those qualities.
The authenic Church, the Body of Christ, the beloved community, call it what one wills has been around for 2 thousands years and outlived the Romans, Byzantines, the Goths, Kant, the a whole host of 19th century German scholars who tried to put it in the dust-bin of history. If I were taking odds the smart money should go to the Word of God and the Empty Tomb as having more staying power than a religious denomin... ...Read Full Response
Reader Response :
Many thanks to Jack Haberer for his continuing courageous focus on peace and justice issues in the the Middle East. There are prominent voices in our own denomination, with strong ties to prominent voices in the Jewish community, who urge us not to "take a stand" in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. However, having followed issues there for over half a century and having made numerous trips to the Mideast, I say that our Biblical mandate and our Reformed heritage both required that we stand with the oppressed Palestinians, just as we stood again Jim Crow injustices in our own society and the repression regime in South Africa. Apartheid is not too strong a term for what the Palestinians continue to suffer under Israeli occupation
Response By :
The Rev. Dr. Robert A. Chesnut, HR -
July 30, 2010
Reader Response :
A debate about rules, polity, FoG is allot like a debate about circles. Where to draw them, size, thickness of circle line. For as a circle makes clear to all who and what is inside and outside the perameters, so organization rules, polity, shape and form of govt. makes clear to all, who and what falls in and out of the circle.
Religious progressives will always draw upon a sense of sentimentality,compassion, inclusiveness as religious virtues above all others, and will want to keep on making the circle wider and wider, assuming that sooner or later, all will be in the circle of love and inclusion. The problem there is that sooner or later if one stands for or affirms all things, at all times, saying all things to all people all the time, the circle means nothing and you stand for even less.
Religious traditionalists or conservatives like their circles well defined and clearly marked, thank you very much, and will resist all efforts to keep redrawing the lines of boundries of... ...Read Full Response
Reader Response :
To take a stand against racial profiling wherever it occurs is the Christian response. To allow fear and distrust of government and our neighbors smacks of Germany during the war years. Our legal citizens and residents of color are swept up by such legislation as much as any who are suspected of being in the US illegally. Don't let our fear of those involved in the drug "wars" allow us to become the third reich in our time.
Reader Response :
//There are plenty of gay and lesbian seminary graduates that are called by God to serve as ministers but are unable to be ordained. The sooner they are free to serve in their full capacity as ordained ministers, the better.
To get what you really want, why spend all the time and effort trying to change a denomination that has voted against ordination of homosexual 4 times during the past 14 years? Why not simply go out and form a new Presbyterian denominations similar to what the Evangelical Presbysterians, Presbyterian church in America, Reformed Presbyterian church and other smaller denominations have already done?
What is going to happen is that when homosexual ordination is granted, the church will split and possibly form another Presbyterian denomination or people that are Presbyterians who disagree with the gay & lesbian liifestyle will simply either transfer to other denominaitons or simply quit altogether. Creating your own Presbyterian denomination would certain avoid a spl... ...Read Full Response
Reader Response :
Bill:
"We must commit to becoming Biblically and theologically literate. That means taking the Bible seriously, not literally. The two are mutually exclusive. We must remember that every word we use is a metaphor, pointing to some truth beyond itself. And words in the Bible are no different, even if those words are somehow divinely inspired."
The only Way to find the Truth of Supernatural, in Religion and Myth is to commit to becoming Biblically, and theologically literate, Literally. Is Religion only of the Mind, and not Literal? Religion and Myth were handed down and translated by Humans through Generation Birth, Death, and Rebirth, without High Tech Science. That does not mean Originally the Super'natural' Writings, were not about High Tech Science Humans.
With our High Tech Science the past 100 years, either High Tech Colonization and Supernatural Creation of Life on Earth, has Evolved up to today, or Earth was Colonized by High Tech Humans in Genesis 1. The Colonization st... ...Read Full Response
Reader Response :
This article is problematic on a number of points. First the author claims that "We must lead the culture by living out our faith's eternal values." Then the author goes on to state that "Where our eternal values conflict with the culture we must stand our ground." I agree with both these statements, but not the author's application of them. The eternal values of the Reformed Faith do not allow for condoning homosexual behavior. While I agree that those who believe themselves to be homosexual should not be oppressed or persecuted in any way, I do not believe that "ministry in the name of the God who loves us all" means telling people that is is okay to sin in any way. Sin is wrong. Period. God loves sinners, but His love demands that we strive to keep from sinning in response to it.
Also, I take issue with the author's assertion that "the fight over gays and lesbians is over." Quite the contrary; it will be over when those who insist that the "rights" of those who believe they are "op... ...Read Full Response
Reader Response :
Thank you, Elder Kaucher. I was an elder commissioner from the Arkansas Presbytery and tried in vain to have the plenary listen to me concerning this motion, it's discriminatory wording and blantant untruth. When Cynthia Bolbach asked the assembly how many had actually read the Arizona law, fewer than a handful raised their hands. I had!! One young commissioner confessed to this gathering a few moments later that after she had voted for the "censure" of the Arizona law in her committee, she read the actual law itself and wished she could have changed her vote.
What is interesting is that the state of Rhode Island has been enforcing an almost identical set of laws for years with no back lash and is not being sued by the U.S. Government as is Arizona. This state has also not been censured by the PCUSA. I wonder why? I am also disturbed about how many other items the commissioners might have also voted on in total ignorance of what the actual truth was if this was a common example?
... ...Read Full Response
Reader Response :
This recommendation that our clergy & church leaders should get themselves tested for HIV/AIDS is really an indicment of what they livestyle has been. Back where I was born, sex outside of marriage was considered wrong. And what is sex between two people of the same gender. The answer is that it is more than fornication.
This issue has been voted down 4 times in the past 14 years. When will this issue be settled so that the church can go forward and fulfill the Great Commission of Mt. 28:19. Or will our church continue to lost its members as Christians walk out the door in disgust?
Reader Response :
Our Pastor Grrg Wood is in favior of Gay marrage and the ordination of gays in the PCUSA. If the PCUSA changes our Book of Order to allow for these things to be acceptible, it will be the end of Tazewell Presbyterian Church. This I can promise you.
Reader Response :
My Pastor Greg Wood, is pro-Gay for marriage and ordination in the church. He says the Sripture is not clear on these issues. I disagree! If the PCUSA adopts policies accepting of Gays it will be the end of Tazewell Presbyterian Church. I and at least half of our congregration will leave.
Reader Response :
"Let him who eyes see, and let him who has ears hear" You folks at PC-USA have not heeded the infallible word of GOD for years. Do you marvel that your church is apostate?? This moderator perpetuates the apostasy, as the Presbyterian Church becomes more and more worldly! How long will your church deny the realities and truthes put forth in the Holy Scriptures?
Reader Response :
Hi Jack Its hard to believe its 40 yrs I remember it like yesterday. Thanks for being one of many that made those times so special. I still get a lump in my throat when I read about how everything got started.
We had so little experience and so much happen. It truly was God working at a special time. May the Lord continue to bless the work your doing. We miss you.
Love from
Ken & Caroline
