I find it interesting that Tom Hobson is doing his best to accomplish just the opposite of what the Gnostics attempted to do! Their emphasis was to super "supernaturalize" Jesus, believing that he only appeared in bodily form. Now, Mr. Hobson is so humanizing Jesus' body, that any vestiges of God that are left result in an anemic Son of God. Mr Hobson might do well to read "On the Incarnation" by Athanasius, for if he is not careful, he will create a Jesus very similar to that of Arius.

Robert Montgomery

Tuscaloosa, AL

When the amendment passed I responded that the Stated Clerk should address a letter of apology to the LDS in Salt Lake City, apologizing for over a  century of shunning from the Christian communion, due to their one time practice of plural and multi-person(s) sexual couplings.  There is far more scriptural example for this construct than the flavor of the month, same sex pairings.  So why does hetero and homo couples share in the grace and blessings of God, and why some off the grid trailer parks in Arizona and Montana that still practice this form of family groups does not. And don't say the State say so, that same methodology can be applied to the hodge- podge  of State laws on same sex marriage now. If the PCUSA looks to the secular state for cover on this issue, it shows how bankrupt the institution really is.  And don't say the Bible says X or Y on the subject, when has that ever been a concern when some new wind blows across the secular culture

   Either the PCUSA needs to develop a list of acceptable sexual practices and maybe forms or methods of, and make that known to the world, or it just needs to shut up about sex all together, gay, straight, two people and more,  and quit showing their ignorance and arrogance on the subject, and do something "churchy" for a change, like maybe a pot-luck, or pass out some Bibles, now there's a start.  The world quit listening to what we had to say long ago.

P.W. Gregory

chalfont, Pa.

Rev. Hobson would do well to watch the tone and gravity of his message. While I agree that atonement is the center of our faith (and, agreeably, a center that needs clarifying) it is wrong to suggest that any more than a minority of individuals hold to a non-literal view of the resurrection. As a recent graduate of Princeton Theological Seminary, I can attest at least for our seminary that the resurrection is held in high esteem.
Rumors of the death of our denomination's view of the resurrection have been greatly exaggerated, methinks. But I applaud your insistence that we focus on the gospel and what that means for today.

Eric Peltz

Defiance, OH

The recommendations of the Mid-Council Commission are less than inspiring in my view.  What problems are they really trying to solve?  And I do wonder about neighbors both near and far being the affinity group for governing bodies.  In his book, "The Big Sort", Bill Bishop analyzes the growing trend, actually it's a tsunami, by which Americans are grouping according to like-minded relationships.  The Mid-Council recommendation is really just another example of the "big sort" in which we hope to gather with those who never utter a discouraging word of difference.  I wonder about that in light of the Pentecost story this past Sunday in which diversity seems to be affirmed by God.  Really Presbyterians can do better. Why not just declare each congregation its own presbytery.  That way folks will never have to encounter differing opinions. But of course we'd still be behind the curve on that one too, as the spiritual but not religious have already figured out that congregations don't welcome difference.

Hart Edmonds

Cincinnati, Ohio

Regarding the Israeli divestment issue, I urge the following reflection:

In 1894, Captain Alfred Dreyfus, a Jewish officer in the French army, was unjustly accused of treason, mainly because of the prevailing anti-Semitic atmosphere. The assimilated Jew, journalist Theodor Herzl, witnessed mobs shouting “Death to the Jews” in France, the birthplace of “Liberty, Equality, Fraternity,” and determined that the Jew would never be safe, and that there was only one solution: the mass immigration of Jews to a land that they could call their own. Thus, the Dreyfus Case became one of the determinants in the genesis of Political Zionism. Herzl concluded that anti-Semitism was a stable and immutable factor in human society, which assimilation did not solve. Thus he advocated for a Jewish state where Jews could be safe.

The ensuing development of the formation of Israel and the resulting relationship with the Palestinians are extremely complex. I would not pretend to know enough to comment on them, except to ask this of my fellow Presbyterians: To what extent were we also historically and are we still responsible for the need for Israel? We can say technically it was the French, or it was the times. But what was and is the effect of the ongoing contrast of Law versus Gospel, of the concept of works versus faith, (works being ascribed to Judaism and faith to Christianity), of the subtle seeds planted by Luther’s “the Jews and their lies” and the recurring suggestion that Jesus treated outsiders radically differently from the way the (other) religion taught they were to be treated, by healing on the Sabbath and breaking purity laws. And in the Lenten season, what about the St. John’s Passion, consistently performed without contextual program notes with its easy suggestion that it is the Jews who issued the plea “Crucify Him!”

Do these realities continue to make Jews feel that they can never be safe? A local Jewish rabbi states that Israel is about survival to the Jew. Can we understand the passion for this? And more importantly, do we have an ongoing role in perpetuating it?

Does it behoove us to not only think about divestment of funds but of divestment of polemic in our Scriptures, which has such dangerous ongoing negative impact, and backlash, in our situation today?

Ann Lewis – Ruling Elder

Any chance we could see a six-week adult study curriculum to help members understand 1)hymnology 101, 2) the process of developing a new hymnal and the individuals involved, 3)traditional and more recent hymns, hymns for the liturgical seasons, 4) Psalms and Spirituals, 5) Taize and Global hymns, and 6) a great hymn sing.

I think this would be very helpful for transitioning congregations.

Heather Ferguson

Chapel Hill, NC

I would take this one step further than P. W. above in that apart from the factual events that some question the philosophy espoused by those groups is not even nice. It is evil in that it offers hope with no foundation, promise with no ability to fulfill, and salvation from nothing and to nothing.

As much as I loved the PCUSA (Yes, I intentionally use the past tense.), it is imploding. I wonder if the years ahead will even list it as a Christian denomination. There is a line somewhere, where one crosses from simple bad theology to unChristian theology.

Craig C. Krueger

Ennis, Texas

I think it is appropriate after this Pentecost Sunday to remember that the giving of the Holy Spirit to the church, which was a real event in human history, is proof-positive of the historical fact of the bodily resurrection of Christ from the tomb. Another real event in human history. Apart from that Christianity is no more than a nice philosophy, and the faith no more important or vital as another self-help book pushed on "Oprah" or "Dr. Phil".

  As far as the presence in the PCUSA or GA of those who deny the bodily resurrection or the tolerance for their views in Presbytery and COMs. Look no further than the facts on the ground as to the state of the denomination. Christ is alive, the Holy Spirit is upon His Church. The same cannot be said for the small, feuding, and quite unhappy  religious sect located in North America. 

P.W. Gregory

We tend to think of Schism as something dramatic, out of a novel. Where clergy renounce presbytery and march out en mass out of some meeting. Or someone writes big wordy theological statements that sets the church in a new direction.  That is rarely the case and never as dramatic. Schism is the end result of a process, a method, a movement played out over years is not decades. It is evolution, not revolution.  And in that light American Presbyterianism has been in schism since 1728. And will continue to be so in the future. In the Presbyterian DNA are two unreconcilable concepts, the quest for theological purity, and the urge, drive to con-temporize the faith, harmonize it, for the human historical context the church finds itself in. In one Truth is fixed and certain, the other, Truth is a moving object subject to the winds of change.  The house divided cannot stand.

  The way the PCUSA since reunion, and prior has attempted to reconcile these dynamic tensions  has been to replace theological, confessional or doctrinal unity with the bogus unity based upon administrative structure, polity, institutional unity based upon the lowest common denominators of per capita and property in trust. Such a construct could not last.  And yes, religious liberals and progressives put far, far too much faith and believe in formal institutions and institutional structures, assuming a top-down power dynamic, which more or less ran the church into a ditch. That if you "build it" they will come. Well its built, but it has been met by apathy if not hostility. As American Protestantism continues to migrate to these two poles of relativism/universalism at one end,  orthodoxy at the other, people, churches, groups will find where they fit along the spectrum.  And will move accordingly, with or without permission of their theological betters.   

  Being Memorial Day were we celebrate the cost of freedom, and those who made it possible, lets remember the American religious experience has been based upon freedom of thought, freedom of association, and freedom of choice. And people do move and vote with their feet, their money and time.   It is not about sex, gays, or who you sleep with.  It has always been does Christ judge culture, or does the culture judge Christ.  Does the Bible judge us, or we it. How you respond will tell you where you end up in time.  It is process, a path one takes, not so a schism or future.  But the living process of life and faith with real living people.

      I would hope at the end that we remember how to treat each other with compassion and empathy, and kindness, and let the bile, the hate, the mistrust, the fights over property and money just fade away, The final job of the PCUSA is the witness and example we set for all to see.

P.W. Gregory

chalfont, Pa.

Interesting that no one else is interested in the job. It speaks to the apathy that seems to be present in our national church. Parsons has the impossible job of trying to hold together a church that is imploding. My prayers are with him.

G.P. Wiest

Valencia, Pa.

From time to time I see the phrase “the congregation needs time to heal ... ” when there has been conflict with a pastor. True enough often enough. Also true too often is that “part of the congregation needs some time to get back in control after a pastor had the nerve to suggest some changes.” Sad either way, but very different in their implications.

And if I may, the comments and article on 1001 in 10 illustrate part of the problem. How does one define creativity in advance??? Why don’t we sit back and wait and see what the Holy Spirit is up to? I’ve always said in my ministry that a big part of my calling is to turn on the green lights. It seems the daring folks are thinking that maybe they will turn on the amber lights, but not too fast ...

Phil Nesset

Riddle, Ore.

... one wonders what you think of introducing the text by giving context or linguistic insights, etc? The comments you make are valid and well-considered. Have never really liked the whole idea of apologetics, classic or not. One also wonders what kind of introduction, if any, would “open” the people to hearing more deeply God’s Word. Thanks for your insights.

Pam’la Cowan

Park Hills, Mo.

Pam’la — You’re the third person to ask what I think about explanatory introductions (as opposed to the “apologizing” ones I wrote about here), so I wish I’d addressed that practice some. I think, as long as they’re kept brief, such introductions can be helpful. Even they, however, might prove an unwitting barrier to hearers unfamiliar with the broad strokes of the Bible’s history or “plot line.” I think the only introduction to a reading that our Directory for Worship calls for is notification of a paraphrase, an adaptation, or a newly prepared translation (W-2.2005).

“Listening to the reading of Scripture requires expectation and concentration” (W-2.2006), however; so if a brief introduction encourages those qualities, it may be of use. I do think, though, the least introduction may generally be the best. Explanations, commentary, interpretation, and so on can (and should!) all be dealt with in the sermon, as preachers invite congregations to revisit and work with the day’s text; but let that initial hearing speak for itself. For at least those few minutes, let hearers encounter the Word unmediated — or, rather, mediated only by the work of the Spirit.

Mike Poteet

Havertown, Pa.

Thank you for the article by Leslie Scanlon titled, “Panel Advises Divestment over Practices in Israel.” I write as one who has been to Israel and Palestine and seen with my eyes the destruction that the large Caterpillars have done in the Palestinian Occupied Territories. Those Caterpillars aren’t the same as pictured on the cover of the March 19th issue of the Presbyterian Outlook magazine. The pictured one is identified as “a forklift which was owned by a Palestinian construction supply company.”

The ones that the MRTI is recommending for divestment are large enough to destroy homes, orchards, and some have been modified by the Israeli military to have machine guns mounted on them. They are also used in the construction of the four hundred miles of a “security barrier” which goes right through many Palestinian villages and towns. This security barrier now completely surrounds the Holy City of Bethlehem.

Our presbytery (North Puget Sound) just spent three months in a period of discernment and study on this issue and then voted overwhelmingly to endorse the overture to divest from Caterpillar, Inc. This was after a period of time to hear personal stories from a Jew, a Palestinian and a Christian. They all have witnessed the destruction that these large Caterpillars have done in the Occupied Territories. It was then followed by a presentation by the Rev. Bill Somplatsky-Jarman who is the Coordinator for Social Witness Ministries of the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) and staffs the church’s Committee on Mission Responsibility Through Investment (MRTI). Through the use of a power point presentation, Bill presented a very thorough process that the committee completes in doing their “selective divestment.”

I’m proud that our denomination makes it a top priority to be so committed to peacemaking that investments are carefully monitored for their future use. Part of our overture stated the following:

To … “instruct the Presbyterian Foundation and the Board of Pensions of the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) to begin the process of disinvestment from Caterpillar, Inc., and not to reinvest in this corporation unless the Mission Responsibility Through Investment Committee of the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) is fully satisfied that Caterpillar, Inc. no longer engages in the selling of equipment to Israel that is used to build illegal Israeli settlements, construct walls that illegally encroach upon Palestinian lands that cut Palestinians off from their own property and natural resources, destroy Palestinian life and property, and otherwise continue to support the occupation of Palestinian territories.”

Dottie Villesvik

Everett, Wash.

Jack..As parents of six children and grandparents of 12 plus several " adopted " new agers along the way we have learned as the 21st century has dawned upon us that we do indeed need them and in turn we sense that they need us. Sadly that acquired wisdom has not transferred itself to many elements within the church yet in truth all segments with the body do truly need each other.

It is disheartening to read and hear some of the calloused theological rhetoric or perhaps legardemain that currently flie around the issues facing the church today yet the truth and fact still remain we need them and they need us. That lesson may be a hard pill to swallow but as time plays out the reality of that will prayerfully thaw the presently biased hearts and they will come to accept that as christians that need is ever present and far exceeds present day : metooism "....Jim Babcock

James Babcock Bozeman, Montana

Any discussion of the theology, ideology, internal politics of any older main line denomination as regards Israel as both a secular nation-state and what it means to be Jewish will always come back to the matters of fairness and balance.  The religious as well as secular  left has always had in its cross-hairs companies, organization, entities that seemingly tilt against their vested interests, big public labor unions, groups with a victimization narrative, and those whom they just do not like.  Replace Cat with Walmart, Exon-Mobil, more or less same polemics and dogma.

  When the UM, PCUSA, ELCA, EPCUSA wish to black-list, boycott, or move to divest from Lukoil, Semens, Nokia, Saudi Aramco that has contracts and concessions with the PLO, Hamas in the territories then I think they will be taken seriously. Until then nothing more than posturing which boarders on anti-semitism.  The PCUSA will sooner or later realize Jews are done moving and done letting bombers on buses to Tel Aviv to please or curry their favor. 

P.W. Gregory

chalfont, pa.

I see this "news article" was written NOT by a reporter but is a news release from the General Assembly Mission Council.

I think the Outlook did a poor job in putting it up on their website as it did because this makes it seem like a news report.

I would think a fair-minded reporter would slug the title to this report something more like "A majority of Presbyterians still oppose same gender marriage."  

Membership is the large pool of people surveyed whereas the other groups surveyed (REs, TEs, etc.)are tiny in comparison.  

If an election was held and the results were 51 to 34 (the percentages among members on this issue) it would be a significant number opposing same gender marriage.  If you removed those who haven't decided, treating them like people who don't vote, then the vote would be 61% against same gender marriage and 39% in favor.  Again, a significant / decisive vote against it and not as this news release from the General Assembly Mission Council wants to portray it to be. 

Matt Ferguson

Your statement "There has been a significant increase in Presbyterian support for same-sex marriage since 2005, when only 13 percent of members, 22 percent of ruling elders, 35 percent of pastors, and 51 percent of specialized ministers were in favor of allowing same-sex couples to wed" is a bit misleading.  While a higher percentage of people remaining in the PC(USA) favor same-sex marriage, the overall number of PC(USA) members has declined significantly with most of those leaving being conservative.  As those who oppose same-gender dynamics leave, the percentage of remaining PC(USA) members who support it will obviously increase, even if not a single person's mind has been changed.  It is disingenuous to imply that a significant number of people have switched sides on this issue when the reality is that a large number of conservatives have been pushed to the point of departure.
Whatever side of the issue a person may be on, the facts should be reported accurately.

Twyla Hajdukiewicz

Ridge, NY

The great 19th century sociologist Max Weber coined the term "institutional friction" to describe the failings of organizations, constructs, institutions in their failures to serve or connect to the people they claim to serve. The PCUSA , due to administrative bloat, ossification of processes, simple arrogance of power, is well along the path taken by the auto industry in the 1970s, Steel manufacturing in the 1980's, and the RC church in the face of clergy abuse.  The old matrix and system will collapse or fold prior to any institutional rebirth.

  Pittsburgh will likely be an event where the GA, the offices of, those employed buy, or the "GA junkies" and activist will more or less celebrate themselves and pat themselves  on the back for good job they are doing. Or affirm the path they have taken. How much money expended on the event is not the primary concern of the organization,   or its impact  on the wider church again is not the issue. The gathering and self-affirmation process is.    So when does the institutional matrix collapse?  Hard to say, but when it does come it will be very sudden, and it will be proceeded by a tipping point, financial irregularities out of Louisville, some mass exodus from Board of Pensions,  some play to impose same sex family methodologies, or liturgical life upon the greater  church. But it will come.

   Maybe its already happened and the new institutional matrix is being formed.

P.W. Gregory

chalfont, pa.

ALL that is Lawful should always be legal! However, all that is legal is NOT necessarily Lawful. IF what society has deemed legal does not meet GOD's Biblical standards, TRUE Christians MUST follow God's Law, NOT man's!

FRANCIS BRYANT SHANNON

Fort Myers, Florida

I think it's fantastic that in Kansas and Missouri, senior artists as well as seniors who have always wanted to explore their artistic side, finally have an outlet to show their art works; and, even have them judged in a competition. I always enjoy attending the art displays each year at the Presbyterian Manor of Wichita. And, as I near "that age," I certainly plan to participate in this program myself. Seniors in Kansas and Missouri are very fortunate that "Art is Ageless" is an annual affair. It is definitely an idea whose time has come and I hope the notion of recognizing and encouraging seniors'  artistic efforts is highly contagious and spreads across the country. I read about a study that proved seniors who are engaged in the creative arts tend to go to the doctor less and, in general, have a higher sense of well-being and happiness. As my granddaughter would say, "Well, Duh, Granddaddy!" Well, duh, indeed. This article has inspired me not to wait any longer and go out and buy that set of paint brushes and paints that I've put off until now.

Carl Williams

Augusta, Kansas