How many churches would leave if a TRUE gracious dismissal process was in place? There are currently 3 processes in use: 1) We OWN your church (original) 2) Bribe us and we will let you go.("gracious") 3) We wish you well in your new life. (rare)

Jim Welch

Bartlesville, OK

I can say nothing more than a hearty "AMEN" to this discussion.  It's time we move from this "goody, goody" heavily biased discussion of divestiture and go on to being a truly missional church.

Sam Dechter

Richland, WA

Gradye Parson needs to step in and strongly suggest that she has invalidated her nomination by doing something against the present Book of Order. If not, then the Book of Order is worthless and we no longer have a denomination. This could also be used by churches who are in civil law suits about property. The Book of Order will seen to be ineffective and therefore they could walk away with their property.

John Stuart

Knoxville, Tennessee

All of these recommendations sound helpful and healthy.  It's really amazing though in another way, in that the report acknowledges that we are still preparing seminarians and living as though nothing has changed in culture or church in the last 25+ years.  We Presbyterians have practiced a grand denial about the changed realities of religion and culture in the United States in that span of time and even longer.  And now that denial no longer works, we're into despair in a big way.  I sometimes think we place our allegiance more in the church, than we do in God's Spirit at work among us.  This  report is entirely ecclesiocentric and really doesn't turn us toward God's mission in the world.  "What is God up to?"  would be a refreshing conversation to engage.  At the same time, I do admire the efforts of this commission on the church in the 21st century.  Many of our mind-sets are still occupied by the 1950s., which is truly remarkable when you think about it.  It's a little like that myth of the "greatest generation" that gets celebrated every Memorial Day.  We were saved by that generation in the WW2 era, and no generation since has been acknowledged as adding much of value to American society, despite the Civil Rights Movement and the Environmental Movement or the Feminist Movement or Peace Movement.  We can certainly thank those loyal servants of the church who've gone before us, but it's time for us to make some history and not just sentimentally long for the golden era of the church.  What if God's Spirit was at work and present with us in our time calling us to some of the most important engagements that humankind has ever faced?  The very future of the planet is now in jeopardy, a world-wide economy is rapidly imploding under the burden of wealth disparity, and it appears many institutions are mired in despair. And the spiritual emptiness of much of culture and our hyper-individualism are draining us of any vision beyond our own personal survival in an increasingly harsh world.   What if we thought we are the people God is calling for such as time as this?   God has an incredibly exciting mission in the world, and if the church responds, God will use us in some powerful ways if we seek reconciliation among all people.  I wonder. Do we in fact see an energizing call for the church beyond its survival?

Hart Edmonds

One thing unique to our presbyterian DNA is our  tendency and dependence at times on metrics, measurements, assessing things. Part of the old "good order" ways of things. Though much like the term "presbyterian" as a brand, or noun or verb,  has lost its meaning,  and in many ways is irrelevant and serves no purpose in capturing any meaning, so I think our breathless yearly reporting of numbers or statistics serves no benefit to the organization. The numbers tell us nothing or inform us of nothing that it is not already clear enough to people that have eyes.

  If one goes the old measuring stick that you will see 70% of  your people on the roles in church any given week, and maybe 20-30% "active" in the church, the real effective "PCUSA" people engaged in the life of the church is about 1.3 million with about 500K or so, really in tune or care about what happens at session/presbytery/GA with less and less engaged the further you go from their pews.  The real GA "junkies" i call them, partisans, activists in the church national is probably less than 5K nationally. And they get all the press and ink.  The real metric they should measure is average worship attendance any Sunday, or per capita assessment per member, which I think gives a better picture of the state on the church.

  As the PCUSA moves on the path of realignment/federation/union with its sister progressive/liberals denominations in the next decade the real numbers are what the UCC/CC (DC) and maybe RCA brings to the table. On that level if you go off their 2010 reported numbers and combine them with the current PCUSA you add to about 3.3-3.5  million  in the progressive "union".  A bit larger than what the PCUS/UPC had prior to reunion in '82. On the more conservative side PCA/EPC/OPC/etc/etc probably all adds up to about 1.7 million, we will see where the ECO numbers will settle over time. Again, organized religion can be a numbers game, for every 1 PCUSAer there is 60 Catholics, 18 Mormons, 6 Methodists, about   40 Baptists of various stripes, and about 8 Pentecostals.     Just going by numbers alone, who do think the Good Lord seems to show favor?  But thank God we do not equate raw numbers with grace, blessing, faith, presence of the Lord. Such an view is unbiblical to say the least.  The "faithful" in the Bible was many times very, very few, maybe even 1 in a KIngdom.

  But the numbers should not be dismissed out of hand. They do serve to show our warmed over, progressive, relativistic, confused and conflicted mush we continue to dish out to the culture it not selling in the public arena of opinion and ideas.  Sooner or later you will get down to 1, and that is indeed a lonely number.

P.W. Gregory

Over all the years when "fidelity and chastity" governed the church, I rarely, if ever, heard of progressive threatening to leave the church. But let the wind shift, a bit, and suddenly all kinds of folks lift high the threat of departure.

A little study reveals that departure has always been a part of the program for many. I've followed the Presbytery Layman for years, and I have always suspected their intent - to find reason to leave. In some bizarre accident of Presbyterian DNA, leaving is always the way forward. Connect this to many of our "Southern" friends, and the compromises made to welcome them into the merger, and we have the perfect storm, so to speak.

Presbyterians have been leaving one another since the get-go. Have we accomplished anything? Hardly. But it's in our blood; seemingly, we can't help it.

To shed tears is normal, but hardly of value. To study the matter further is akin to folks saying that we need to study further this matter of women's ordination or slavery or whatever other social patterns upset folks in the pew.

I lament all of this, of course, and I salute the faithfulness of tens of thousands of progressive Presbyterians who stay the course, love the church, struggle to open, and now keep open, the doors of ordination, and now establish the right of pastors to officiate at gay marriages in such states wherein it's allowed.

I cannot, however, given the nature of our story, or the history of the last 50 years, imagine a scenario wherein the "uncomfortable" will decide to stay. We all have definitions of the church, and we're at a point when competing definitions have become, or so it seems, mutually exclusive; after all, the wall can't be both pink and green at the same time.

We're only doing what we've done throughout our history - we leave in hopes of finding peace, unity and theological purity. Will it work this time?

Tom Eggebeen

Los Angeles, CA

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth ; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written , The just shall live by faith. 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen , being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful ; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened . 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools , 23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. 24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: 25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator , who is blessed for ever. Amen. 26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another ; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet . 28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient ; 29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, 30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: 32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.  Romans1:16-32

Dianna Kinkead

Katy, TX

You are so right.  Unless there is a massive service of repentance at GA, my husband and I will be looking for a new church home after the second week in July.  We have both been elders in the PCUSA and are saddened beyond belief about what has transpired in our beloved church.  The PCA is looking mighty appealing about right now.

Dianna Kinkead

Katy, TX

In the therapeutic world, there is a concept called "magical thinking", where one posits a reality or situation that suits their mental/emotional place in life. It is a form of self-defense.  One punches that balloon with care and compassion for the client.  I think many of the PCUSA elites engage in such a thought process. But the balloon will pop at some point. Yes, the PCUSA (1983 reunion version) matrix and organization is indeed dying, from a demographic and power-down ability of the organization to extend management and  control over its people and programs.  But the 'church' itself is not dying, far from it. The PCUSA is in a transformational process to a post-Christian entity in ethos and theology, which is unitarian in outlook/relativistic in philosophy.  Now some will be along for the ride, others not.  Some may kick and scream about the process, others will rejoice. At some point you see some realignment on the liberal/progressive denominational axis. There will be presbyterians in the future. They will just call themselves PCA/ARPC/EPC/ECO/RPC/OPC/Cumberland's, you get the message.

P.W. Gregory

chalfont, pa.

Heath,
  Are you really serious?  Are you that out of touch with reality?  Some of the largest and most vibrant churches in our denomination have just left!  It's about a 1 year wait for a new seminarian to even find a call.  We are letting go of a substantial number of GA staff and the building in Louisville is half empty.  Every year we have had a net loss of members since I was ordained 20 years ago.  Any corporation that would have had our record would have fired the board of directors and the CEO a long time ago.  
  I do think there is always hope for the PCUSA, but it begins with understanding the reality of our situation, not some fantasy of where we wish we were.

G. Wiest

Cranberry Twp., PA

Yours is a compassionate statement of faith and respect for all people, and I commend you.  Sharing your own faith journey on the subject of marriage equality is very compelling.

Hart Edmonds

Lebanon, Ohio

Is our Presbyterian Church (USA) dying? Not from your vantage point?  Really?  I suppose if you don't count all the churches that are contemplating or actually leaving, the many members in churches across the country (of both the right and the left) that are drifting away and the fact that member deaths far exceed our annual baptism numbers, I suppose all is well.

So, here's a word of unsolicited advice: Maybe it's time you moved to a new vantage point.  From where I sit, the PC(USA)'s breath on the proverbial mirror is getting fainter and harder to see.  We may not be ready for Hospice, but a code blue crash cart of carefully considered reality might help.   

William Lee Kinney

Washington, North Carolina

Listen to the tone and tenor of the statements. The proxy in this latest chapter of the culture war is the VPs actions. Sex/gender/orientation has very little to do with the discussion. The dynamic tension is between progressive liberalism which seeks to push a vision/agenda to move the institution into what they would call ever greater "social justice" , and religious/ social pluralism, which seeks accommodation with a variety of interests and agendas and ideas under one structure, more or less.  Allowing for variations of practices and behaviors in a more or less regional or local setting.  The holy grail of 2010 for progressive liberals was the whole gay ordination process. Now it an AI to allow such practices such as what took place with the person in question.  Pluralists will see the AI as another example of governing over-reach and excessive management practices, progressive liberals will see the struggle in their narrative of victimization/discrimination, and the ever onward march to social utopia.

  In this upside down world,  it is the progressive/liberals who argue the most against non-geographic presbyteries, ECO/PCUSA affiliations, and for forced payment of per capita, property in trust, all because they cannot tolerate dissent from their vision for the church. Hence go to great lengths to defend the status quo.   And know full well once allowed, they cannot impose their corporate model upon the church as a whole.  What will happen? As water finds its own gravity in time, so in time you will have general re-alligment of protestant christianity into a more or less progressive/liberal camp, UCC/PCUSA (what remains), CCDC, UU, maybe even Quakers,  into some federation and others,   into other centers of gravity.  And peace breaks out, until the next great social crises. Anything is far better than this slow motion misery of the church.  
 

  People, churches, associations move, and will continue to do so. It the governing structure that is always the last to find out and adjust too.  The emperor has not cloths.

P.W. Gregory

chalfont, pa.

If we didn't have people in the past to push and nudge the church to embrace equality where would we be?  We would not have embraced racial equality.  We would not have ordained women.  I recall people pushing and nudging the church in the past being called willful, arrogant and guilty of ecclesiastical crime.  And yet, we welcome blacks and we ordain women and we call this faithful.  We do that because people in the past pushed and nudged the church.  Thank God people are pushing and nudging the church again.

Wm. Blake Spencer

Pleasantville, NJ

Interesting that John Schuck would weigh in on this issue.  He has denied the divinity of Christ and the validity of scripture, both of which I would call renunciation of his ordination vows with ABSOLUTELY NO discipline brought by the PCUSA.  Of course he is in favor of allowing for things that go against the church's polity.  This denomination is a rudderless ship.  I say pass it all and let it die even more quickly...

Matt Mitchell

Thank you for this thoughtful and timely article. I am a reluctant commissioner to GA and this article reminds me that I am not alone in my denomination. God is still in the business of changing lives. He changed mine. Thanks again.

Amy Na

New Castle, PA

It is not that the PCUSA is good or badly governed, or those in power are good or bad people .  It is just there too much government and the organization is choking on its mechanisms and processes. The PCUSA lives far beyond its means and has an organizational structure which it cannot afford on a cost basis in programs and people, let alone maintain and manage.  The PCUSA management process is not too big to fail, its just too big relative to current membership and activity in the church.  

   This makes far too much sense and would upset far too man rice bowls and vested self interests, but the GA really needs to meet every  5 years, if that. Presbyteries really need to meet no more than 3 or 4 times a year for business process, can meet for fellowship/worship as often as needed. But churches will be about the Lord's work as they see fit, the organizational matrix just needs to keep quite, be humble, show some grace, and get out of the way.

  If not, churches will always have the choice, pay for its overhead or higher management processes, or not. I think the "not" crowd is making its voices heard and we will see what will come about.   

P.W. Gregory

chalfont, pa.

It is my opinion that this guarantees the election of the Presa/McCabe ticket.  And, by the way, I do NOT wish for this to be published in the paper edition of the Outlook.

Charles E. Blakely

Pelzer SC

This could not be a clearer picture of the death spiral happening in PCUSA. Not only are there lax standards and equivocation regarding the meaning of ordination vows, but there is a willfulness, pride and arrogance on the part of those willing to violate those vows in order to do what is right in their own eyes.

Tara Spuhler McCabe spurns her ordination vows with this action. She dissembles when challenged on what she actually "performed," but as noted elsewhere, the general perception of what she was doing matters, since a minister may not under our polity leave the impression that they have done something that is manifestly against Presbyterian understanding.

The fundamental question remains: If even the passive, toothless authoritative interpretations we do have are going to be ignored by those who insist on disobedience, why bother to change them? Or, to have them in the first place? Or to maintain membership in this confused, improvising denomination?

Joe Duffus

Gainesville, Va.

The article states, "humility tells us that we should surrender our anxious defense of truths that are not given to us to guard (Christ’s, the Bible’s, the tradition’s, science’s, sexuality … ) because by guarding we idolatrously confuse truth with our own narrow opinions."

It is sad that, according to the authors of this article, believing the clear teachings of the Bible on sexuality (or Christ, or the Bible itself) is idolatry. I would have thought the opposite was the case: setting up human opinions over God's revealed Word in the Bible is idolatry.

Have we forgotten the Sola Scriptura of the Reformation: joyfully submitting to God's truth as revealed in the Bible? God is not a paradox revealed only by conscience and experience; God is reasonable and is revealed to us through the Bible. God has made us reasonable creatures, able to apprehend God's truth as revealed in the Bible. God's Word in Scripture must be clear, at least on such centrally important issues as salvation and sexual morality, or Sola Scriptura is meaningless. To deny the clarity of God's teaching in the Bible - on any moral issue! - as this article does, is not humility, but the height of arrogance.

True humility is not leading on a paradox that precludes the possibility of knowing truth; true humility is submitting to the Word of God, the Bible, which is not contradictory but consistent when rightly understood.

B J Payne

Seattle, WA