Christopher:  I would respond, from the other side of the theological, cultural debate that the current impasse is not just a matter of GLBT ordination issues, but general institutional corruption of power, organizational drift, and an elitist methodology of management  based on winner-take-all high pressure polity processes that drain the spirit and break the will. Unity based upon the lowest common denominator of property and per capita.

  The church you enter is indeed far different from the one I entered in 1982. I was trained to be a system administrator and loyal member of a denominational structure that more or less expected things to done in a manner they had always had since 1723. Well things change, some for the better, others not.  Unlike you will need to be a faith, religious, spiritual entrepreneur. You need to make your won calling and make your own job, find a need, find a cause, find a mission and do it.  Do not expect to just to do your PIF and send it off to 10K churches expecting to be hired, clergy are just too expensive to hire, someday Board of Pensions and Presbyteries will get that memo.  And if you do serve 30, 35 years you likely will not serve in the PCUSA, but a  denominational structure made up of UCC/PCUSA/Unitarian churches in a center-left organization.

  Do not be afraid, pray and pray some more, If you feel God has called you, God will support and encourage your ministry. The best for you is yet to be.

pw gregory

There is much that can be said about BOP, much of it from previous posts I will not summarize. Suffice to say the situation in the BOP is a classic demographic squeeze. Far too many retired, soon to be, using BOP services, especially in health care and far too few churches or clergy generally in more healthy age cohorts paying into the system. It is a math problem, not a ideological, theological problem per se, though the corporate practices and behaviors of the BOP tends to make a bad situation worse. As i say many times about the PCUSA, the BOP never misses an opportunity, to miss an opportunity.  

   It's ham-handed, opaque, elitist governing structure and communications with its stake-holders, both clergy and churches leaves much to be desired. As I have stated, their usual M.O. is announce major changes after 3 weeks of closed door meetings at Hilton Head, all expenses paid.   They do not engender trust or confidence in their process.  And much like everything else they claim either their hands are tied, or they do not have to, so they just tell the system to take it with out recourse or due process or even discussion.  The same-sex gender benefits program is example one of that process. Their attempt to balance the cash flow crises, which they just themselves seemingly woke up too after years of happy-talk and spin, on the backs of those at the lower end of the job-wage scales another.

  In the interests of full disclosure I am a federal retiree, and with a 401K from a previous private sector situation prior to that.  My situation is unique ,and not shared by many in the plan.  But many, many more are not as fortunate and have placed their financial and health care lives in the hands of those vested to ensure equity, fairness,  and openness, transparency to those who pay their bills. Such is seemingly lacking at this time. Shame, shame, shame.

pw gregory

Noel Anderson • A brilliant man and a tremendous loss.HIs reputation for being fiercely uncompromising in intellectual matters was matched by his huge heart for the rural and small church pastor. He encouraged humble service and made short work of pretentiousness. He was one of those rare, few professors who exel at revealing students' self-delusions and half-baked idealisms. His life and life's work merit the respect of the entire PTS community. In days to come, as people with his keen mind and unswerving dedication to truth prove in shorter supply, he will be missed all the more, and his memory held in increasing value.

Noel Anderson

Religion, faith is by its nature alive, vital, always on the move. As such,  faith, religion changes, evolves over time. Sometimes those changes are rather quick. Brigham Young lead over 30,000 into the Utah in less than 40 years after Joseph Smith and the "tablets".  By the end of this century Mormons will likely be the largest American religious group outside of the Roman Catholics. Sometimes not so quick, the European religious wars over the Reformation lasted over 100 years when the Puritans felt the need to find their own "Utopia", and left Holland for America.

  I believe we are in such an era of over-all realignment, especially on the Protestant side of the house. People are tired, exhausted by the partisan bickering and culture wars, both in politics and religion. And have the tendency to self-select their choices of worship, faith, worship that reflect more of their global world-views.  Good or bad, right or wrong that process has been well underway.  Demographics, relative birth rates among white educated women, the rise of the "none of the above", spiritual but not religious crowd, all point to a general realignment of the Protestant denominations along the ends of the ideological, religious spectrums.  The PCUSA, UCC, CC (DC) and maybe some Unitarian elements will form a "United" church within the next 10-15 years. Canada, Australia have already been down this path in their older main-line liberal protestant religious streams, the same will happen to us.

  This process is neither good nor bad, just is. For those who pine for unity and gnash their teeth over the various divisions, stress, trauma, winner take all votes and polity, and small-agenda tribalism of the current church. That will end, when all  realize there are various elements in the denominations who frankly  practice different religions, to pretend we can exist in the same denominational structure  is magical thinking.  Just wait till 2014 when the PCUSA changes the understanding of marriage.  Another mile-post along the path.

pw gregory

Interesting gathering.  With one exception, all the groups represented have a very liberal bent, and basically a one item agenda.  So why were representatives of Presbyterians for Renewal, the Presbyterian Coalition, and the Presbyterian Lay Committee not invited?  Was it out of fear about having to engage in equal and serious dialogue?  It seems to me this meeting was more of a propaganda, public relations event, than it was a serious discussion about the future direction of the denomination.  It's quite clear where the liberals want to take the denomination in the future, and there is no way they will allow the moderates or conservatives to have any say in that future.

David McCann

As a military, combat veteran you tend to look at these movies a bit differently I suppose.  War is war, the just and unjust die. It should never be served up or embellished for entertainment purposes. High production values aside, and a story told well, it is still Hollywood and actors. Those in the special or shadow forces I knew prefer to do their work in the relative silence of being anonymous, outside of public light. As it should be. There are those in that brotherhood who will not be able to see this movie. They rest in section 60 of Arlington National Cemetery.  I personally buried some as Chaplain there. Killing OBL, a needed death if there ever was one, will not bring them back or ease the pain of those who loved them.  I thought of their faces when I left the movie, still do.  Yes there is pride in a mission complete, the sadness, the pain does not leave, for those taken far too young,  in a place we have tended to rather forget.

Peter Gregory

If I was a space alien dropped onto planet earth, and not a teaching elder/minster for 32 years,  I would conclude from this message that the organization called the PCUSA is no more than an odd collection of special, narrow interests or lobby groups with little in common save the pushing of their favorite agenda. Sociologists would call such behavior "tribalism" and such an organization weak in both character and message. The PCUSA clearly has a choice, continue to cater and serve these alphabet soups of networks, groups, fellowships, and gathering,  or say what it really believes and confess what it holds to be true. Stand on the ground it chooses and make that clear to all. Do not apologize for such positions, or spin the content. Until such time I wonder just who I should direct my per capita, TAMSF, FOP, Covenants, NEXT what. Voices for Justice, whatever that is ?   It is a confusing thing. I can tell you one thing, the lobbying group known as the PCUSA sure is not getting it. I have no idea just who they are. Are you a charity, a clearing house, a political action committee, the good housekeeping seal of approval?   Very confusing.

pw gregory

The dominate theological culture in the church today is not historical, biblical Christianity, but a mix of the pop psychology of affirmation, empowerment mixed with a therapeutic narrative of Jesus as your best counselor. In the mainline church that has been mixed with a grab-bag of liberal/progressive social causes and narrow interest group agenda's and you get a church not worthy of either devotion, support or sacrifice. You get a powerless, bloodless Christ who remains a nice-guy but one who cannot Save.  So in essence it is each person is a self-driven, autonomous  center of faith, that seeks no guidance or power higher than themselves.

  This is PCUSA you want and desire. A PCUSA who will affirm all things, at all times for all people, all the time. But one so easily discarded when things are not to your liking. Yes you can ordain and bless, sanctify whomever you want or feel is right, but do not come back and ask for my money or devotion to a process that more or less ran over 2,000 years of history to satisfy the urge and desire of the time.

Peter Gregory

Thanks for this Jack. It's a bit like the classic line from the Tale of Two Cities, "It was the best of times, it was the worst of times." At the very time when so many are going through agonizing votes, processes and transitions, God is doing wonderful new things in our midst.  Really appreciate your highlighting this. These Get in the Game events have been tremendously hope-filled and life-giving.

Blessings,

Roger A. Dermody
Deputy Executive Director for Mission
Presbyterian Mission Agency
Presbyterian Church (USA)
(502) 569-5489
www.pcusa.org

I am appreciative of Casey Jones calling this to our attention again. However, I am concerned that he takes too benign a view of the matter. It is not simply the case that the chair of the ACC gave bad advice, the stated clerk gave bad advice, and the moderator made a bad ruling. That happened, but that is not the worst of it. It is also the case that the assembly voted to sustain the moderator's ruling. That is an official action, and it is devastating. The assembly voted with the moderator and against Robert's Rules of Order to say that it was free to change part 2 of the constitution, the Book of Order, in such a way as to bring it into direct conflict with part 1 of the constitution, The Book of Confessions. The fact that the assembly declined, three-and-one-half hours later, to initiate such an amendment means simply that we won the battle. The bigger picture is that we lost the war. The assembly voted to say that the confessions of the church have nothing to do with governing the life of the church. It is now a matter of record that nothing in the Book of Order has to agree with anything in The Book of Confessions. The deed is done. We are no longer a confessional church. We have reached the end of all constitutionality. We are governed by feelings and the power of the party in ascendancy.

Thank you for your consideration.

Grace and Peace,

Jim

Dr. James C. Goodloe IV, Executive Director

The Foundation for Reformed Theology

        Gathers ministers into ongoing communities of study

        Helps them recover the historic faith of the church

        Cultivates better preaching, teaching, and pastoral care

        Builds Up the church of Jesus Christ today

21 Dec is the date in the Mayan cosmology for the end of the world. Assuming that we are here 22 Dec some comments about 2012 events

    -The complete silence of organized religion on the matter of recreational pot/drug use, legalization.
    -The relative passivity of organized religion to Power Ball Lotto mania and related social implications of a addictive behaviors.
    -30 years of civil war in the Congo that has killed over 8 million with no end in sight.

  Again the religion of America is not Christianity, atheism, or "none of the above". It is social libertarianism as it applies to sex, money, and assault weapons,  among others.

  If history proves anything that given a choice between social chaos, anarchy and totalitarianism. People will choose the latter. We have the social chaos and anarchy portion down pretty well.    We have the partisan extremes down as well. Germany in 1932 was the country of Goth, Luther, and classical music. They made their choices. The largest political party in Greece today blames the Jewish bankers for their ills. Maybe the Mayans were onto something after all.

p.w. gregory

21 Dec is the date in the Mayan cosmology for the end of the world. Assuming that we are here 22 Dec some comments about 2012 events

    -The complete silence of organized religion on the matter of recreational pot/drug use, legalization.
    -The relative passivity of organized religion to Power Ball Lotto mania and related social implications of a addictive behaviors.
    -30 years of civil war in the Congo that has killed over 8 million with no end in sight.

  Again the religion of America is not Christianity, atheism, or "none of the above". It is social libertarianism as it applies to sex, money, and assault weapons,  among others.

  If history proves anything that given a choice between social chaos, anarchy and totalitarianism. People will choose the latter. We have the social chaos and anarchy portion down pretty well.    We have the partisan extremes down as well. Germany in 1932 was the country of Goth, Luther, and classical music. They made their choices. The largest political party in Greece today blames the Jewish bankers for their ills. Maybe the Mayans were onto something after all.

p.w. gregory

Smacks of grandstanding

Tom Richards

I have to take small issue Tom Erich. It will not do for the church insist on technological fix - fewer dangerous guns - unless we address with equal vigor the fallen condition of the human heart that perpetrates the violence.  People with a redeemed conscience aren't comfortable exploiting or violating others.  And not so quick about not having firearms on school property. I don't think teachers have any business having guns in their classroom.  But I'd have an open mind about a trained person knowing where a gun was kept in a gun safe in an administrative area.  Pilots can carry firearms in the cockpit as a last ditch defense against a hijacker or terrorist, for the sake of the passengers in his care. Unless we are willing to keep armed police officers at all of our schools we should ask how we plan to better protect students. Perhaps we have unknowingly made schools soft targets for disturbed persons. Go ahead and ban assault weapons, but let's have the moral courage to address the depravity that is underneath most of the gun violence in this country.

Michael Garrett

I have been a teaching elder/clergy in the PCUSA for 30 years. A life member of the NRA and a hunter prior to that. My son hunts, my grandson will hunt. I own 5 weapons. I have killed everything from white tail deer, to 1500 lb. elk. Anyone who reads my various posts knows I take no counsel of the various utopian nonsense generated by the PCUSA at times.

     I take no offense, nor do I see this action by the Session as any threat to any outdoor activity I choose to engage in.  Nor do I feel my outdoor activities constitute a sin by any measure.  But look at the facts. This country is drowning in its own filth of gun violence, random acts of terror, slaughter of the innocent.  Any church that seeks to address that in any means has my full support.  We are the church for goodness sake, what is next, concealed weapons in worship? The pastor and choir packing Glock-9s?  Your 4th grade teacher on the firing range getting qualified in the .45 cal.  Weapons in the class room?  Insanity.  I also take no counsel of the occasional nonsense of the NRA and its guns for everybody at all times pronouncements. We will see if it does represent hunters and outdoor- men's rights, or is it a function of the gun manufactory lobby. We will find out very soon.  The heat is on them. As well it should be at a time like this.

   God bless the church. But I will be honest to you, the NRA will listen to what I have to say long before it pays one notice of what a church or pastor in Rockville MD has to say.

p.w. gregory

If Presbyterians want to do some good in the current moment, we need avoid falling into the polarized discussion on gun violence in this country. We need to affirm that human sinfulness is behind most gun deaths and the church has something to say about repentance and living a life worthy of Jesus Christ. The gun lobby has a point.  The trigger didn't pull itself. Advertising gun free zones is an invitation to people set on doing violence. We also need to affirm the common good and be willing to say that the idea that it is a basic American right to own as many large and dangerous weapons as we might wish is inconsistent with our duty to each other. Assault rife bans, limiting clip sizes, and requiring better background checks are reasonable courses of action.  If we refuse to run to the fringe, we might actually do some good.

Michael Garrett

The "toxic stew" of American culture; casual violence, addictions, pornography, hyper-sexual, hyper-violent video games and music as entertainment, the pot and dope culture, has roots in the warped sense of "libertarianism". That each person is an autonomous moral actor, free to choose their own paths and behaviors without the interference of outside authority. Ann Rand on steroids. Pagan to its core. You see this most recently in the pot as recreational use measures that passed in Wash. and Colorado.  People get highly offended when you begin to mess with their power-ball draws, alcohol, dope, guns, and sex. Measure to limit such or limit access to such fail every time.

  Further we as a society since the 60's have moved to de-institutionalize the mentally ill into community based health systems and self-administered chemical therapies, that at times is either non-existant or very poor at really treating those with pathological if not homicidal tendencies. Mix with the easy gun culture, and the recipe for random acts of mass murder is pretty much set.

  WWJD?  I think the lesson of faith are pretty clear, 4BC, 2012 AD. Submission to God, self-sacrfice of ego and wants to the KIngdom of God. A return to the good old fashioned values of community, mutual support, moral courage, and yes, public shunning and shame to those who would otherwise threaten our family, our children, our communities.  God fearing Law and order. Some of that 1950's stuff we sort of threw to the wind in our mad rush to deconstruct society in the 1960s/70s cultural and sexual revolution.

 As any parent who is now burying their children today, if they could go back to say 1955 and the order and structure of that society, with all its known flaws, or the social chaos, random death, toxicity of 2012 what do think they would choose? 

p.w. gregory

In light of Newtown I find both the timing and subject matter a bit curious for a Christmas message.  They could have addressed a number of issues global and national, but choose a topic that  seems rather small in light of the ongoing events and is rather parochial in scope. It is like sending the annual Christmas letter to the extended family and only talking about how Uncle Mark drank too much at the last family gathering. I also wonder just who is their audience, those in the institution, or those out. But one can see their intent, given the sad state of their  incredibly shrinking denomination.

  Assuming they wish to speak to those on the fence or those contemplating leaving, some comments. Your words of unity sound rather hollow and disingenuous when compared to recent actions by synod and national PJCs to chill and use fear and intimidation as negotiating points in conflicted situations. Further behavior speaks louder than words.  In that regard the behavior of the institutional and corporate PCUSA leaves one to pause.

   -A complet failure of the institution to stand up to its own partisan base in the Covenant Network and allow such narrow agenda groups to more or less run the church.

   -A failure of balance or even rationality in its almost reflexive anti-Israel policy statements that at times boarder on anti-semitism.  

   -A complete failure to speak or even address the recent passage of recreational use pot in 2 states which will only lead  to more human misery and suffering due to addictions. if nothing points to the moral bankruptcy of the institution, this does.

   -A complete and utter failure to address unity in practice and behaviors in terms other than property and per capita.

     Until such time those matters are addressed i will continue to sit on the fence an keep a hand over the wallet.  Thank you.

p.w. gregory