Contrary to Jon Heckman, I believe there's far too little news about the ECO
and the PCA and other Presbyterian denominations in the Outlook.  We need to
know about each other and learn to respect each other -- for Christ's sake,
and for the sake of the holy universal church.  Maybe we would even begin to
pray for each other.  What is the meaning of schism in a denomination where
ordained persons can believe anything they want and do most anything they
want?  I guess I don't see much hope for the continuation of the PCUSA.  I
do have great hope for a revival of Reformed Christianity in America that
will be evangelical and confessional with preaching and the sacraments front
and center.  Let's learn about each other.  What harm can it do?

Benjamin Sparks

I've met Stated Clerk Edward Koster several times during the ten years I served as a presbytery Stated Clerk, and always valued his comments. Ed Koster's commentary “The Decline of Discipline,” explains why I feel fragmented from the denomination and it's membership. He noted “... since members and governing bodies feel increasingly free to violate this covenant (The Constitution) we have with each other, there is little left to bind us together.” I occasionally meet with gatherings of colleagues, representing a range of theological & social views, and they tell stories of people in their presbyteries and councils they serve on doing, as Ed notes, “what is right in their own eyes.” There is no discipline in the church. When I was licensed and then ordained to the Ministry of Word and Sacrament I affirmed several vows. At lease one of them I can no longer affirm. My presbytery should have the guts to accuse me and remove me from jurisdiction for breaking my vows. If they don't, I should come forward (D-10.0102 c) in “self-accusation.”

John A. Gilmore, Milford

“Discipline?

                There is gold in the third section of the Book of Order, when we discover that our discipline is really industrial strength pastoral care. 

William E. Chapman

Retired teaching elder, Presbytery of the Palisades

Hillsdale, N.J.

The BOP changes is indeed a done deal.  Only two real questions remain in this saga. What if any,  do the 160 or so Presbytery EPs and Stated Clerks have to say on this matter, and what if any is there any retort, due-process or resistance to the proposed changes?

On the first matter there is only two responses. They either support the changes or they do not. To say nothing, to do nothing, speaks volumes as to their relative worth to the system at large. In such a time of this they are, and show themselves to as a group, empty suits or bureaucratic functionaries who sit behind a desk, occupy space and draw a paycheck.

 On the other matter of course there is no due-process or response possible in the PCUSA. It is like all Clergy/Teaching Elders and their churches have been transported to the old Soviet Gulag and we are told to be thankful for the cold gruel dumped on our plates and told resistance is futile. That we just have to bear it.

  There really is not greater commentary to the days events as the final authorization will happen a the end of a meeting at the 5 star Phiily Ritz-Carlton. I am sure Cozumel has been book up for the winter. I cannot make this stuff up.  

Peter Gregory

The matters of economic justice, call neutrality, risk pool adjustments, and other alternatives and mitigations has been discussed by me and others in other posts .I will not rehash those discussions.  At this point the BOP proposed actions, is a done deal. I have but two questions.

   Where are the 160 or so Presbytery EPs and Stated Clerks on this matter? Their collective silence speaks with a deafening noise. At this time of crises with Teacher Elders and churches that pay their bills, they can either be for these proposed changes, or not. But to say nothing, do nothing speaks to their collective lack of moral backbone and in essence paints them as empty suits or bureaucratic functionaries that really add no value to the organization.

  Further, what retort or due-process are we afforded in this matter?  The response is none of course. It is like Teaching Elders and churches in the PCUSA have been transported to the old Soviet Gulags where one should just be happy with the daily gruel dished out on our collective plates.  And keep our comments to ourselves, less the beatings commence.

  There is no better commentary to the process that the decision will be rendered post a meeting at the 5-star Philly Ritz-Carlton. I am sure Cozumel or Barbados has been booked for the winter.   You really make this stuff up.

Peter Gregory

No person in National Capital Presbytery filed a complaint against the Rev. Tara Spuhler-McCabe.  The complaint was filed by serveral persons who attended the GA in Pittsburgh.  Once the complaint was filed NCP acted according to The Rules of Discipline to form an Investigative Committee to determine if an offense had been committed and whether charges would be filed.  That happened. No one from the Committee on Ministry of NCP was involved with this.  You are correct in stating that the rebuke must be read to the presbytery whether Tara wanted that or not.  In fact, she did request that it be read to presbytery, irrespective of what the Rules of Discipline require. I chaired the IC and am confident that the process used to resolve this complaint was in perfect accord with the Rules of Discipline.

Doris Mabrey

My commentary on the matters of economic justice, fairness, call neutrality and proper risk distribution and mitigation have been made in previous posts. I will not rehash those discussions.  I just have two questions.

   Just where are the 160 or so, EPs and Stated Clerks on this matter? Their collective silence on this vital matter before the church is deafening. Given the gravity of pain, suffering, the impact on the churches who pay their salary leads one to conclude that in lack of evidence to the contrary, they are nothing more than bureaucratic functionaries, empty suits, who have reached their level of incompetence. Say something, either the collective leadership supports this, or it does not. But silence is simply collective failure in the face of challenge.

  Second is just where is the retort, just where is the due-process, where is the ability to resist the change ?  O right, it does not exist in the corrupt relationship between the PCUSA and BOP.  It is like Teaching elders have been transported to a Soviet Gulag for health care, where we just thank our masters for the gruel they slap on our plates.

  I can think of no better commentary to the banality and corruption of the system than the change will be announced at the conclusion of the meeting at the 5 star Philly Ritz-Carlton. I suppose Barbados or Cozumel was booked for the season. Shame, shame, shame.

pw gregory

The matter of economic justice, fairness, community distribution  of costs, the principle of call neutrality has already been address in my previous posts on the matter. At such a time like this  I have two questions. Where are the EPs and Stated Clerks of the 160 some Presbyteries on this matter?  Seems to me they would, or should have something to say on the matter. Their collective silence on this matter is deafening. And if they indeed have nothing to say on the matter, matters that effect their own local churches who pay their salaries. Then may I say they really serve no purpose,  and are nothing more than empty suits sitting behind a desk, collecting  pay-checks. Bureaucratic functionaries who have reached there collective level of incompetence. They richly deserve whatever pain this causes them in their jobs.

  Second question. If the BOP changes do indeed do come to pass, as they will given the corrupt nature of the PCUSA-BOP relationship, then what is the retort, where is the appeal or due-process?  O, right, there is none.  I can think no better commentary as to the times as the BOP will make the changes at a meeting at the 5-star Philly Ritz-Carlton. I assume Barbados is booked up for the season. Nothing speaks to the banality and moral bankruptcy of the entire system.

pw gregory

Lovely work, Don.  A book on writing and prayer can't be reviewed well except by someone who knows both; and this one now has.

Wayne Boulton

I can understand a more accurate translation for accuracy sake. However, I disagree with the article as to the rationale for creating this translation. It seems that we might do well to articulate the current confession and turn to propigate the other Confessions in Our Book of Confessions. It might draw us back to beiong a people who really do believe in the Authority of Scripture and that we are not about to capitulate to cultural reworking. The Church is not our Society. Our confessions call us to a higher standard.

Warren Gene Campbell

The Book of Discipline mandates (D-11.0701) that the rebuke be read at the next meeting of presbytery.  It is nice that Tara requested it's reading, but that has nothing to do with the disposition of the matter.  That no one ever filed a charge is a dereliction by the member of COM who initiated the investigative commission (D-10.0102b).  No disciplinary process is to proceed without such charge (D-10.0101).  Does anybody have to know anything to be a Presbyterian any more? 

Bruce Becker

I have had the oppotunity to have both Amanda Benckhuysen and Robert Hoch as instructors while pursuing CRE certification at UDTS. Both are excellent and this webinar will be well worth their insights into "rupturing the routine".

Phil Johnson

Fervent congratulations to the Central Florida Presbytery and Trinity Presbyterian Church on the Christ-honoring way the presbytery dealt with Trinity's desire to re-position itself in the Reformed family of faith.  With the exception of a few sad even outrageous cases, the PC(USA) can be proud of the generally gracious way it has dealt with departing congregations.  What an admirable contrast to the Episcopalian denomination (TEC) which has the same property trust clause and which has been treating departing congregations harshly.  TEC gives departing congregations only the two options of either surrendering the property voluntarily or going to court even when a congregation is willing to pay TEC full market value for the building they built and paid for in the first place and even when TEC has zero prospect of sustaining an Episcopalian congregation in the building.  In one instance in New York City, TEC sold the building to a Muslim group for a lower price than offered by the congregation.  At their triennial conference in 2012, TEC was forced to disclose to its members that TEC has paid $18 million in legal fees suing congregations for their properties in court.  All Presbyterians can hope that the PC(USA) follows the Christ-like witness of Central Florida Presbytery so Presbyterians don't embarrass themselves the way Episcopalians are embarrassing themselves.

Jim Caraher

Chicago, IL 

There are a lot of factors to look at with respect to this decision.  Let's look at how we got to where we are: 1)As the Presbyterian Church has continued to reject scriptural values to embrace secular societal values, people and churches have been leaving the denomination.  These departures have led to a smaller pool on which to draw from for funding health care. 2) As the Presbyterian Church has been very slow in embracing evangelism, even belittling those who did advocate for evangelism for decades, the denomination has aged and grown smaller as members have died and new members have not replaced them.  3) When I started in the ministry in 1985, I went to a BOP workshop on financial management.  At that time, I was told that the Pension plan was set up so that when we retired 1/2 of our income would come from Social Security, so don't opt out, and 1/2 would come from the Pension program.  Now the BOP is saying it is a three-legged stool (I don't know when that change was made) and 1/3 comes from Social Security, 1/3 from the Pension, and 1/3 from our own savings.  Since most pastors are paid poorly and incur great debt sending their children to college, they are unable to save what financial planners say they need to save (about $2,000,0000!) for retirement.  The result is pastors are working well past retirement age, sometimes with great health care costs being paid by the Medical plan instead of Medicare and a Medicare supplemental insurance.  This has led to younger pastors being denied opportunities to receive calls, keeping those with minimal health care costs out of the system.  Bingo, the BOP can't keep up with rising health care costs of an aging active clergy. 4) Several alternative proposals have been submitted, but ignored.  I put together a proposal that would open the doors for more younger clergy to get calls, which would lead to dues being paid for them with minimal expense going out.  I was told by a BOP rep that it was a good proposal.  It was submitted to several of the top folks at the BOP.  There was absolutely no response.  They have made up theirs minds and will not allow themselves to be confused by other viable options.  It is this kind of rigidity and intolerance, along with items 1 and 2 mentioned above, that will continue to lead to the demise of the Presbyterian Church.  Ultimately, the BOP decision will lead more churches to seek out Commissioned Ruling Elders instead of ordained Teaching Elders, so they don't have to pay the big BOP dues, which will in turn lead to another crisis in the Major Medical funding, which will lead to more drastic changes in the dues schedule, which will lead to more even more Commissioned Ruling Elders and fewer Teaching Elders, which will lead to more...  It is sad to me that no one wants to address this downward spiral and deal with the root causes of the problems.  Instead, too many seem to prefer a quick bandaid approach to the symptoms.

David McCann

Jim.

Thank you for your letter re/our loss of the confessional nature of the church.

While I did not follow the details of the assembly meeting, I believe what happened was the de jure expression of what has been de facto in the PCUSA almost from the time of reunion.  Ever since we could amend the FoG by a majority vote of the presbyteries and without the confirming vote of a subsequent general assembly,
we have been operating as you described in your letter.  (She who has the most votes wins -- assembly after assembly and presbytery after presbytery.)  We have had a fundamentalism of the FoG for what seems like forever.  When was the last time anyone was called to account for belief, for conviction, or for disastrous theology?

This is discouraging and has led me to cynicism about the PCUSA for which I pray forgiveness.
There appear to be so many horses out of the barn that we're about to see a stampede.
The only hope I see, with few exceptions, is the vitality of congregations and the faithfulness of many of our pastor theologians.

It's not a very 'fur piece' from believing what I choose to doing what I choose.
I appreciate your calling attention to this matter so pointedly.

New Year blessings,

Ben Sparks.

Richmond, va.

I concur with every word my friend, colleague and classmate Noel has said about our friend and mentor Diogenes Allen.  He loved God and taught us to love God with a clarity and vulnerability that opened pathways we never knew existed.  His compassion for his students was palpable.  From my first days in a small parish to just days before his death he was faithful in writing personal letters of encouragement and asked for guidance.  I will forever know what it means to renounce the things of this world in order to be open to loving God because of how Dr. Allen loved God and in turn loved me.  His life is a witness to the resurrection.  How grateful I am.

Hooray for POAMN! As an advocate and writer for older adults, I applaud your efforts! I wish churches everywhere would retool their ministry to/ for/ with older adults. Go POAMN! www.missybuchanan.com

Missy Buchanan

I really don't see how giving free publicity to this, or other, schismatic bodies, fits in with the Outlook's purpose of working to foster the continuation of the PC(USA).

Jon Heckerman