Comments for 2009 Covenant Network Gathering: And grace will lead me home at http://www.pres-outlook.com , comment 1 to 20 out of 20 comments http://www.pres-outlook.com Thu, 09 Feb 2012 22:00:00 +0100 FeedCreator 1.7.3 http://www.pres-outlook.com/news-and-analysis3/1-news-a-analysis/9385-2009-covenant-network-gathering-and-grace-will-lead-me-home.html#comment-5185 Right from the beginning Achtemeier admits that, "my journey has not involved any kind of retreat or qualification of my strong commitment to the authority of Scripture, the Lordship of Christ, and the belief that God calls people to lives of personal holiness. I come to you today as an out, self-affirming, practicing conservative evangelical." Self-affirming? So he's trusting himself and not God for absolute Truth when the Bible clearly says that our hearts are "deceitful above ALL things,and DESPERATELY WICKED". Only God knows our hearts and has commanded in His Word how we are conduct ourselves in this life and the how we will live in the next depending on our choices. On the topic of sexual relations, God has made it clear that homosexuality (in addition to a list of other sexually immoral acts) is sin and the wages of sin is death (hell for eternity). Achtemeier goes on to say that he experienced Christians who are "firebrand exclusivist, hurling thunderbolts and belching fire against the opposition, gay people with any sense tend to avoid your company" Many times people take rebukes and correction as belching fire because those people hate correction and see no other way besides what they desire. Not to say there aren't merciless Christians who, having been delivered from sin, have to right to condemn anyone, but are commanded to be messengers of the gospel of Jesus Christ in a loving and respectful manner. The whole point of being a Christian is to be dead to sin and alive in and through Christ's blood. To be reconciled with the Father through Jesus and have the relationship that God intended from the beginning of creation. God clearly expresses that homosexuality is sin in numerous verses in the Bible. When anyone starts to wedge their own understanding into the Bible, they separate themselves from God's Word and in doing so...separate themselves from God and becoming a false teacher. Regardless of the sin whether homosexuality, fornication, lying, stealing, etc it is all sin to God and you would NOT make into heaven. It doesn't matter if you know the Bible back and forth and desire to engage happily into Scripture or present your own personal understanding of the Bible, that conveniently allows the sin you love. I'm not at all surprised by a practicing sinner and/or cultist (Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, etc) to know the Bible and be eager to discuss their understanding, "for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve." - 2 Corinthians 11:14-15. One thing we fail to focus on is that regardless how we feel, the truth is the truth and it is plainly laid out for us to read and obey. Lastly, nowhere in the gospels and never does Jesus say, “There is nothing here for people like you.” Yes, Jesus does welcome all, but He welcomes those who will believe in Him AND repent from their sins, turning away from ALL SIN. Remember that it was because of sin that Jesus gave His life on the cross. Now through His blood we can be free from sin. I myself have been free from fornication, masturbation, lusting, sodomy (with women) along with many other sins. A major problem is that there are those who hold on to various sins because they want the joy of going to heaven for eternity AND indulge in sins they enjoy. Then, when rebuke/conviction comes in and the person doesn't want to give up the sin, the deception of compromising, twisting Scripture and creating a Jesus and God that fits their desires is typical. Thus creating a false god/idol in their mind who happens to be okay with their sin. Jesus warns us of false Jesus' and serving two masters. "Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness." - 2 Timothy 2:19. "Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them. "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!' - Matthew 7:15-23. On judgment day, there will be those who profess the Name of Jesus, yet continue in sin, and He will tell them, "I never knew you. Away from me you evildoers." So what's the solution? Repent and turn away from ALL sin, there is freedom whatever sin has you captive through Christ Jesus and I'm a living example and testimony of the power of the blood of Jesus to set sinners free. - Levi Gorin Mon, 08 Feb 2010 18:51:32 +0100 http://www.pres-outlook.com/news-and-analysis3/1-news-a-analysis/9385-2009-covenant-network-gathering-and-grace-will-lead-me-home.html#comment-5020 Mark, Thank you for this article, this gift from God, as I see it. I do not have any degrees in theology, but I have lived my life as a Christian. What you have learned from actually getting to know & love gay persons as Christians has given you an insight that many people have not had the chance, or maybe desire, to acquire. And that is to know that they are just like anyone else...God created them just as he created us. Only their sexual orientation is different. I have two sons, and one is gay. The first thing he said to me when he "came out" was: "Mom, I love God, I am a Christian, I did not choose this." That is good enough for me. My hope is that one day he brings home a life partner that will be welcomed around our family table, and will become a blessing to our family. Thank you so much for your article. Nancy - Nancy Wick Thu, 12 Nov 2009 15:08:27 +0100 http://www.pres-outlook.com/news-and-analysis3/1-news-a-analysis/9385-2009-covenant-network-gathering-and-grace-will-lead-me-home.html#comment-5012 Dave Moody demands "Show us. Show us a comprehensive and deep analysis of scripture." Brother Dave, I did, but your eyes remain closed. Now go and read Tobias Haller's book instead of harping on someone else's. - Paul Ambos Thu, 12 Nov 2009 06:17:45 +0100 http://www.pres-outlook.com/news-and-analysis3/1-news-a-analysis/9385-2009-covenant-network-gathering-and-grace-will-lead-me-home.html#comment-5005 @ Paul So, Dr. Achtemeier has moved from 'selective and superficial' to 'comprehensive and deep' in his scriptural analysis of obedience and submission to God in matters sexual. Fair enough. Show us. Show us a comprehensive and deep analysis of scripture that lands us on anything other than a one man, one woman context for obedient and blessed sexual activity. Declaring something, doesn't make it so. Thats all I ask. Jack Roger's book on the subject is unconvincing, dismissive of objections, rather than analytical. As for casting stones... I hope I cast no stones. I am sinful and a sinner. I am a teacher and pastor, and am held to a higher standard. That is a positively frightening position to be in. Jesus is full of grace, and meets us- all of us- where we are. He receives us as we are. He doesn't condemn. He is a friend of sinners. In his cross, our judgement is found. For that, I am most grateful. Jesus is also full of truth. He didn't condemn the women caught in adultery... but he commanded her to go and sin no more. It seems to me, Dr. Achtemeier is calling for a silencing of that command, when it comes to this specific sin. Pointing that out is not casting a stone. Bonhoeffer probably said it best- "when Christ bid a man come, he bid him come and die." Following Jesus cost us, it costs us every idol we make, every idol we hold dear. Including the idol of our sexuality. I understand the working out of this obedience in not simple for those who struggle with sexual holiness. I understand our sexuality is complex. There is much grace with Jesus, and our God is rich in mercy and love for us in these struggles. But, he doesn't give us a pass in what he has revealed. And we dare not echo our enemies words first heard in the garden, "Has God really said?" The church is to offer grace in the struggle, not a pass on the cross- the very mechanism of grace. I wish you grace & peace, dm - Dave Moody Wed, 11 Nov 2009 17:52:49 +0100 http://www.pres-outlook.com/news-and-analysis3/1-news-a-analysis/9385-2009-covenant-network-gathering-and-grace-will-lead-me-home.html#comment-4990 Pastor Moody et al., you clearly chose not to appreciate Achtemeier's point: "And having never questioned my selective and somewhat superficial interpretations of the Bible’s teaching on the subject, I also assumed that a gay lifestyle must certainly involve a fairly casual attitude toward scriptural authority and an inclination toward personal self-indulgence." How selective and superficial are your own interpretations, doubtless influenced by your own personal life-histories in ways you will not admit to yourselves? I commend to you Tobias Haller's book, "Reasonable and Holy" (there are other exegetical sources, but Haller's is most articulate). Read it and then re-examine your old interpretations. Meanwhile, don't be casting the first stone. - Paul Ambos Tue, 10 Nov 2009 15:29:58 +0100 http://www.pres-outlook.com/news-and-analysis3/1-news-a-analysis/9385-2009-covenant-network-gathering-and-grace-will-lead-me-home.html#comment-4988 Thank you for this Mark. I have shared it with others (making sure I include the copyright!) Bruce Garner Atlanta GA - Bruce Garner Tue, 10 Nov 2009 14:18:55 +0100 http://www.pres-outlook.com/news-and-analysis3/1-news-a-analysis/9385-2009-covenant-network-gathering-and-grace-will-lead-me-home.html#comment-4986 First let me respond to Mr. Goodnight. Please do not use the "flat earth myth" as a red herring in this discussion. You might want to educate yourself on this. Here is the issue in brief: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myth_of_the_Flat_Earth Did anyone notice that Mr. Achtemeier refers to himself at one point as a Neoorthodox Evangelical? I know what a Neoorthodox is and I have a pretty good handle on what Evangelical means, but I have not heard these terms conflated. If anything, this gives us a good handle of where Mr. Achtemeier's theology is today. I am also troubled by what Mr. Achtemeier says were his perceptions of homosexuals before actually getting to know them. Did he really believe that they were all living in openly visible self-destructive utterly promiscuous lives (though many do). His often equating alcoholism with homosexuality actually has some validity as in earlier DSM categorization, before it was changed because of politics. Therefore I wonder if he has never met a functioning alcoholic? Would his perceptions of alcoholism change if he were to meet one? I would be happy to introduce him to one I know. Would he then view alcoholism as a "gift from God"? How about committed polyamorous situations such as in Mormonism? If he were to meet a well-adjusted committed group of people in such a situation would his perceptions change on such behavior? I wonder how far we can take this? Exactly how is Scripture the sole authority (sola Scriptura) for Mr. Achtemeier? - Adel Thalos Tue, 10 Nov 2009 12:48:59 +0100 http://www.pres-outlook.com/news-and-analysis3/1-news-a-analysis/9385-2009-covenant-network-gathering-and-grace-will-lead-me-home.html#comment-4983 As I read the strident comments in responce to Mark's excellent presentation, I am convinced that our argument and the perception of our division is misplaced. The real question is not about sexuality, but how do we handle and interpret the scriptures. Do we believe/affirm the witness of The Creed of 1967 particularly in 9.29 regarding scriptural interpretation? or - Do we harken back to an earlier time where we accept scripture no matter what we know to be factually true (ie flat earth etc.)? On what basis do you place your argument. If literal, then you must argue for a flat earth and ignoring science. If totally experiental then what weight does the Bible hold? Be not anxious, maybe the truth is in the tension between the two, not in either side being able to claim the right to sit at Jesus right and left hand. I find out I am the furtherest from the truth when I insist that I am speaking the absolute word of God, insisting that others recant of their heresy without acknowledging my own. - Bill Goodnight Tue, 10 Nov 2009 11:41:00 +0100 http://www.pres-outlook.com/news-and-analysis3/1-news-a-analysis/9385-2009-covenant-network-gathering-and-grace-will-lead-me-home.html#comment-4982 This address is filled with much common sense and compassion and a profound desire to understand how Scripture helps us to discern how the Holy Spirit is working in the Church and in the World in our time. Dr Achtemeier has obviously been through a long, difficult struggle and is discovering that the struggle is only beginning. One of the major criticisms I have observed in the comments is the lack of a thorough exegesis of the 'problem' passages of scripture which have been seen to address the subject of homosexual orientation and practice. I refer them to this passage from Dr Achtemeir's address: "... A part of this story that will have to go untold for today, is how armed with this recognition, I went back to the Bible to figure out the mistakes in interpretation that led to such a damaging view of homosexuality in the first place. I have described some results of this quest in another place,[xii] and perhaps we can make the text of those remarks available to the conference organizers...." _________ "[xii] Mark Achtemeier, “Unsettling Questions.” Unpublished manuscript, Austin Theological Seminary President’s Symposium, April 4, 2007." That they missed an important statement like this is very surprising. That they would then critique his address based on criteria that are expressly not treated in a talk (which deals with the overall trajectory of his intellectual and spiritual pilgrimage on this issue) is dismaying. One hopes that their reading and exegetical interpretation of Scripture is more attentive to nuance than their critique of this address. The Book of Common Prayer says in the Collect for Advent II, "Blessed Lord, who hast caused all holy Scriptures to be written for our learning; Grant that we may in such wise hear them read, mark, learn, and inwardly digest them, that by patience, and comfort of thy holy Word, we may embrace, and ever hold fast the blessed hope of everlasting life." In my observation, it is the 'inwardly digest' part which is so lacking in discussions on this (and many other) topic(s). And it is the process of inwardly digesting the holy Word of God which is the true subject of Dr Achtemeir's address. And it is only by inwardly digesting scripture that we are given true spiritual nourishment. - The Revd R Craig Bustrin, Trinity Cathedral Tue, 10 Nov 2009 10:57:22 +0100 http://www.pres-outlook.com/news-and-analysis3/1-news-a-analysis/9385-2009-covenant-network-gathering-and-grace-will-lead-me-home.html#comment-4974 I've never seen anyone apply Calvin's critique of Roman priestly celibacy to the question of Gay marriage, and it strikes me as very helpful. The traditional advice to GLBT people is indeed a form of soul-murder: ignore your body, your dreaming, your longings, your personality, and never be intimate with another human being - never experiencing love is how you find God, right? Works every time! I've never had any respect for Calvin before, but on celibacy, he was right. Your suspicion of "experience" is well-stated but narrow; individual experience is always suspect, but the Christian community's experience acquires real authority over time, especially as it is repeated in different places and contexts. We can trust the Spirit to move in consistent ways among different churches. Paul saw among Gentile Christians what Peter saw among Jewish ones; that's what won the argument. Your experience with your Gay Christian friends is the same as that of all the other Straight Christians who are being led to a different understanding on these issues. I hope you can meet more of them and compare notes. You might think your Gay Christian friends are an unusual cohort, but they're not; most LGBT Christians are that way. Ask the other Straight reappraisers you meet to tell you about their Gay friends, and see if they don't sound familiar. Scripture contains all kinds of hidden gems on this topic, once the scales fall from our eyes. - Josh Indiana Mon, 09 Nov 2009 23:47:55 +0100 http://www.pres-outlook.com/news-and-analysis3/1-news-a-analysis/9385-2009-covenant-network-gathering-and-grace-will-lead-me-home.html#comment-4973 I seem to be the only person in the comments who breathes a sigh of relief when I read this address. When will we stop letting fear and ignorance pollute our theology? Hermeneutics are never static, and this is for a reason: our cultures, societies, and circumstances are constantly changing. We need not be loyal to agendas or political parties, only the Spirit. If I believe, as the writer of 1 John 4 does, that God is love, I can no longer condemn those I know who married to someone of the same sex. Some of these friends know the meaning of covenant better than I do. - Carrie France Mon, 09 Nov 2009 19:31:04 +0100 http://www.pres-outlook.com/news-and-analysis3/1-news-a-analysis/9385-2009-covenant-network-gathering-and-grace-will-lead-me-home.html#comment-4972 Strange but Mark Achtemeier came up in a conversation yesterday. I read thinking I need to view opposing views. Sadly what he says that experience should not trump Scripture is just what he does. His comment on St. Augustine on I John is not taking the text seriously. In fact he gives no scriptural support for his change. His argument for change reminds of that of former Moderator Jack Rogers, who stated he changed because of knowing a devout homosexual deacon. In both cases it is the experience of others' pain that leads them to reject historic Biblical interpretation. Both demonstrate compassion for those in the homosexual struggle. But all 'sin' is a struggle. Paul wrote speak "the truth in love" in Ephesians. We need to hold both. I can err holding on to 'truth' but in a non-loving manner. But we need both. I am afraid Mark lets go of the truth in seeking to be compassionate. Jesus mentioned people not knowing the "scriptures or the power of God". The people in One to One, those who have been changed affirm the truth of Scripture but also the power to change. Matthew 22:29. What we seem to neglect in American Christianity is repentance. It is acknowledging our sin that leads to new life in Christ. - cody Watson Mon, 09 Nov 2009 17:31:15 +0100 http://www.pres-outlook.com/news-and-analysis3/1-news-a-analysis/9385-2009-covenant-network-gathering-and-grace-will-lead-me-home.html#comment-4971 Mark,thanks for your candid honesty about your search for an answer. Thanks be to God for your openness, your integrity, and the new possibilities that standing in a new place will help you to see. Today we need compassion, acceptance, and hope more than we need judgment and rejection of those who are different from us. - Ben Johnson Mon, 09 Nov 2009 17:27:22 +0100 http://www.pres-outlook.com/news-and-analysis3/1-news-a-analysis/9385-2009-covenant-network-gathering-and-grace-will-lead-me-home.html#comment-4967 Thank God for Dr. Achtemeier who is willing to listen to the voice of God rather than the traditions of men. He is truly seeking justice, loving mercy, and walking humbly with God. Captives are being set free with this message of hope. Sadly, Dr. Achtemeier is paying a serious price for his courageous stand and will continue to do so for some time to come. God bless you Mark Achtemeier. - Joe Quillin Mon, 09 Nov 2009 17:04:52 +0100 http://www.pres-outlook.com/news-and-analysis3/1-news-a-analysis/9385-2009-covenant-network-gathering-and-grace-will-lead-me-home.html#comment-4962 Ah, the great old "conservatives don't listen" argument that we all know so well. What a ridiculous charge. We've been "listening" and "conversing" for decades. The thing that seems to most irk our opponents is the fact that this has not worked and we have failed to convert to the revisionist agenda. And the fact that so many of the accusers try to wear the same labels that we do is just all the more ridiculous. I have yet to see a self-styled "progressive" say that homosexual sexual activity is sinful and still get to keep the progressive label when they do so. Yet, those who call themselves "Reformed, evangelical, etc." get to undermine orthodox, apostolic teachings all the time! Thus our frustration and laments with doctors of the church like Dr. Achtemeier who abandon historic Christian teachings on sexual ethics is readily explained. Labels mean nothing. Stated positions do. We know people by their fruits, as our Savior taught. - Toby Brown Mon, 09 Nov 2009 11:31:57 +0100 http://www.pres-outlook.com/news-and-analysis3/1-news-a-analysis/9385-2009-covenant-network-gathering-and-grace-will-lead-me-home.html#comment-4961 I'm saddened to read the comments from Dave, Toby and Fred. I don't know Dr Achteimer, nor have I ever heard of him I'm afraid. However, I am impressed by this talk. I'm a conservative evangelical Reformed believer and am encouraged to hear other evangelicals seriously engage the real issues of the LGBT question. Of course, in such a talk it is impossible to deal with all the issues of exegesis on all the passages. Yet again, the traditionalists seem utterly unwilling to listen unless they like what they hear. In fact, Toby says he has 'fallen'. He does not demean the experience of those who have chosen celibacy as gay people (or straight) - in fact he makes that point clearly. He does make the excellent point that if someone has been in abusive and/or promiscuous situations and they then leave that and become celibate that will be beneficial. Why is it that people whose orientation is an opposite-sex one who are promiscuous and/or in abusive situations don't get told to be celibate and never have a relationship? Promiscuity is not helpful, and is sinful - whether its same-sex or opposite-sex. There was much more that Dr Achtemeier could have said - regarding the 'clobber passages', the Greatest Commandments, etc etc. That would have been impractical and this starts a conversation for some, continues a conversation for others. Why are people unwilling to listen as brothers and discuss where we disagree? I'm greatly encouraged by the article and discouraged by the comments. - Ruairidh MacRae Sat, 07 Nov 2009 21:36:49 +0100 http://www.pres-outlook.com/news-and-analysis3/1-news-a-analysis/9385-2009-covenant-network-gathering-and-grace-will-lead-me-home.html#comment-4957 As much as I like and admire Mark Achtemeier, I'm afraid I must agree with Dave and Toby. Mark has been moving in this direction ever since he served on the PUP committee. I'm waiting to hear what my friend Bob Gagnon has to say about Dr. Achtemeier's change of heart. - Fred H. Anderson Sat, 07 Nov 2009 08:54:03 +0100 http://www.pres-outlook.com/news-and-analysis3/1-news-a-analysis/9385-2009-covenant-network-gathering-and-grace-will-lead-me-home.html#comment-4953 I can't add anything to what my gifted colleague and friend Dave Moody said. Dr. Achtemeier's fall is a sad one indeed. - Toby Brown Sat, 07 Nov 2009 05:42:39 +0100 http://www.pres-outlook.com/news-and-analysis3/1-news-a-analysis/9385-2009-covenant-network-gathering-and-grace-will-lead-me-home.html#comment-4952 I agree that the word "sad" best describes this. This address, for all of its attempt to assert the contrary, elevates experience above and beyond the Word of God. Dr. Achtemeier's use of Calvin to undermine Scripture and the Reformers' teaching regarding chastity would be laughable, if it were not so sad (why not read what Calvin had to say about same-sex behavior, rather than misappropriate what he said about marriage?). I am reminded by this address of the words of Paul in 2 Timothy 4:10: "For Demas, in love with this present world, has deserted me and gone to Thessalonica." Yet none of us should be surprised. As early as the Confessing Church celebration in Atlanta back in 2000, several people approached me after Achtemeier's address and stated their shock at how he had abandoned any real doctrine of sanctification. This address shows us the fruit of this journey. It is sad, and even blasphemous given the way he attributes his position to the Holy Spirit. May God have mercy on the professor, and may he come to repentance. - Walter L. Taylor Fri, 06 Nov 2009 18:50:37 +0100 http://www.pres-outlook.com/news-and-analysis3/1-news-a-analysis/9385-2009-covenant-network-gathering-and-grace-will-lead-me-home.html#comment-4951 This is one of the saddest things I've read in a long time. And I mean 'sad' in a mourning, lamenting, sense. The straw men Dr. Achtemeier sets up and knocks down, the presumptions he makes regarding other self affirming, practicing evangelicals is jaw dropping. No biblical exegesis on how passages in Corinthians, Romans, Revelation can be otherwise understood from the text. A marked lack of humility regarding his experience, and the experience of those brave folks from One by One bearing witness to the grace of God in the cross of Jesus. Somehow he has discerned their experiences through his grid. Why is his newly found experience authoritative over those who speak of the difficult freedom they've encountered (One by One)? Especially when they're experience is consistent with the clear and unequivocal teaching of scripture. If this is supposed to convince anyone but the shallowest of exegetes, I'm baffled. The cross is for everyone to pick up and carry- nobody gets a pass- those of us who struggle with heterosexual compulsions, and those who struggle with homosexual compulsions. Managing sin (as scripture defines it) is something other than encountering the cross and the grace of God. Idolatry, something every human has at his or her heart, is never acceptable to God. It does one little good to confess and repent of those sins that we don't hold dear. with much sadness, Dave Moody, Pastor, Trinity Church. - Dave Moody Fri, 06 Nov 2009 17:11:19 +0100