Comments for UPDATED: Fidelity-Chastity ordination standard remains in place in PC(USA) at http://www.pres-outlook.com , comment 1 to 31 out of 20 comments http://www.pres-outlook.com Sat, 20 Mar 2010 00:50:30 +0100 FeedCreator 1.7.3 http://www.pres-outlook.com/news-and-analysis/1-news-a-analysis/8719-fidelity-chastity-ordination-standard-remains-in-place-in-pcusa.html#comment-4638 There has been a lot written, spoken and debated about this issue over the pass 30 years and one thing has remained constance, THE WORD OF GOD. Now we want to re-write God's words to fit our life style (bibles without gender, etc). Did not God punish his people in the pass for making the slightest change to his instructions (expample: Moses tapped the rock to bring forth water more that once as God told him, and many other I know you have read.) As christian, we CAN NOT pick and choose the verses of the Bible we believe and dischard or change the ones that speak against something we think is OK. Are we smarter than God? We can tell him and the world what he really meant to say was certain SINS are ok or not SINS at all. Please stop thinking that times are different from when the Bible was written, gay, lesbian, transgendered and bisexual people are not a "Today's Issue". God has dealt with it before, don't beleive me, go visit the folks living in Sodom! Would we have spent this much time and effort if the issue was ordaning Killers, Child Molesters, Robbers or other sinners? God hate all sin (not the sinners, for he sent his SON) Great and Small. An outsider can not tell The Presbyterian Church General Assembly from the Democratic Convention, we are both talking about todays issues. What ever happened to being a people dedicated to the things of God, separated from the things of the world. Our commission is to spread the Good News, not to Re-write the story before we tell it. Why should I have to talk to my Pastor about "My sins" if "His or Her" sin can be voted away, maybe we should have something added to cover the wife beaters, drunks or drug abursers. Let's stop trying to define Righteousness, no matter how we vote, who we ordain, what actions of man we accept, God is in control, and he will have the FINAL VOTE. - Jerome Brown Thu, 30 Apr 2009 14:54:53 +0100 http://www.pres-outlook.com/news-and-analysis/1-news-a-analysis/8719-fidelity-chastity-ordination-standard-remains-in-place-in-pcusa.html#comment-4635 LORD God, have mercy upon us as Your people! Show us how to love one another in the midst of our strife and denominational divisions. Send Your healing Spirit! Show us how to love You well. Show us how to love our neighbor. Show us how to extend mercy and grace. Show us how to be holy, even as You are holy. We need Your mercy at this hour. Show us how we might love each other at this time. Please forgive us our sins - the sins we commit against You, and the sins we commit against each other. Forgive us our pride, our arrogance, our self indulgence, our unkind words, our disobedience, and our lack of love. Forgive us the ways we do not uphold the peace, purity and unity of the Church. We are guilty. We as a denomination are guilty! Send forth a tsunami-size tidal wave of repentance, for our ill-will towards one another and our lack of awe, respect and love for You. Forgive us...and give us new life in Your Son. Amen. In the Name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. - A Concerned Voice Tue, 28 Apr 2009 10:52:55 +0100 http://www.pres-outlook.com/news-and-analysis/1-news-a-analysis/8719-fidelity-chastity-ordination-standard-remains-in-place-in-pcusa.html#comment-4634 Two thoughts occur to me. The first is, 'How many times does our church have to consider this issue before we conclude that the Holy Spirit has spoken and it is time for us now to conform to God's leading?' To those who believe that ordaining gay, lesbian, transgendered and bisexual people is a "civil rights" issue, the answer is, 'Until we get it right.' For those of us who see it first as a biblical/theological issue we think that thirty plus years and four votes have given God the time and space needed to arrive at a position filled with both grace and truth - a place that conforms with the historic understanding of the biblical data and in conformity with the global church today. The second thought I have however is this, if we do change our denomination's position we become immediately a church different not in degree but in kind from the church many of us were ordained into - and a church we would not have sought ordination into. The same would be true for many congregations as well. The road we are on right now is a 'win-lose' road. Would it not be far more charitable to all Presbyterians and a far better witness to the watching world to allow for a realignment of congregations into new configurations reflecting who we really are - historic, orthodox and evangelical on the one hand, progressive, liberal and inclusive on the other. Why not allow, as we did in 1983, a seven year window for congregations to choose which one best reflects who they really are and then, wishing one another God's richest blessing, continue in our ministries of prophetic witness, evangelism, justice and reconciliation? Our Roman Catholic friends handle their differences by allowing for different orders united through their common allegiance to Rome. Could we not work out a similar structure that allows for the mutual support and love of one another through a common medical and pension plan, joint support of camps and conference centers, colleges and seminaries, while allowing for separate institutional identities on a par with the Jesuits, Augustinians, Franciscans and Benedictines? Such a scenario calls no one a loser and allows for both unity and diversity. Just a thought. - Trevor Smith Tue, 28 Apr 2009 08:26:46 +0100 http://www.pres-outlook.com/news-and-analysis/1-news-a-analysis/8719-fidelity-chastity-ordination-standard-remains-in-place-in-pcusa.html#comment-4631 I believe we need to prayerfully and thoroughly consider where we go from here and find a way out of this self-destructive cycle we are in. I call on all of us not to continue doing the same thing. For the progressives this will be hardest because they believe God is leading them to change our current ordination standards by amending that part of our Book of Order. I think we need to hit the pause button until we can come up with some totally different way to address this division without our part of the Church. I think we need to give a fair hearing to what some within Presbyterians For Renewal has been formulating in recent months, what I have heard called a "17th Synod Option". I know many have some misinformed ideas about the New Wineskins Association of Churches but let me state here that many (maybe even a majority) of us within NWAC still seek a way to remain faithful within the PCUSA. I know those who have been misled about NWAC and open to a 17th Synod type of solution will not like that being said but it is the truth and I would hope you would check it out for yourself before continuing to believe untruths about those who are very much in line with you on this. But let's look at any other options out there and not just some 17th Synod proposal, let us consider anything other than continuing this destructive path we have been on. Let's get some very creative, out-side-the-box thinkers who truly represent folks on both sides of this debate. (I do not think those who are lukewarm middlers in this talk cannot do this work as whatever you come up with would have no chance of being satisfying (see TPUP).) It is time for some totally different way forward, where nothing is off the table including going separate ways as we seek to be faitful to where we sense God is calling us. It would be far better to separate purposefully than to be blown apart. Hopefully the next GA will see this and not send out yet another attempt to amend our ordination standards and continue this destructive pattern but will set in motion the seeking of this a new way to address our very different visions of where God is calling us to go. - Matt Ferguson Tue, 28 Apr 2009 07:30:51 +0100 http://www.pres-outlook.com/news-and-analysis/1-news-a-analysis/8719-fidelity-chastity-ordination-standard-remains-in-place-in-pcusa.html#comment-4630 Love covers a multitude of sins. May we all acknowledge our need for grace and stop pointing self-righteous fingers. And may love be the guiding principal in all our interactions with those in and out of our denomination. - Frank Stricklen Tue, 28 Apr 2009 06:29:47 +0100 http://www.pres-outlook.com/news-and-analysis/1-news-a-analysis/8719-fidelity-chastity-ordination-standard-remains-in-place-in-pcusa.html#comment-4629 Love covers a multitude of sins. May it be a guiding principal to people on both sides of this issue. - Frank Stricklen Tue, 28 Apr 2009 06:26:12 +0100 http://www.pres-outlook.com/news-and-analysis/1-news-a-analysis/8719-fidelity-chastity-ordination-standard-remains-in-place-in-pcusa.html#comment-4628 My Presbytery has conducted open forum discussions on this vote. What continues to trouble me is how Scriptural authority is continually undermined, and that current cultural/social norms seem to be informing people's conscience more than than consistency of Old AND New Testament Scriptural witness over the last 2000 years. It is striking to note how the Presbyterian church is growing and expanding in the rest of the world (outside of Europe/North America) and shrinking here. Jesus said to be "in the world, but not of the world". And, to be fair, the American Presbyterian church has many things to repent of, not just ignoring scriptural authority on matters of sexuality. - Alex Tue, 28 Apr 2009 06:08:27 +0100 http://www.pres-outlook.com/news-and-analysis/1-news-a-analysis/8719-fidelity-chastity-ordination-standard-remains-in-place-in-pcusa.html#comment-4627 Steve Wintermute suggested the homosexual's ordination debate is "Essentially the same arguments pro and con" as the women's ordination debate. Not exactly. The debate about women's ordination was a debate within the scripture. There were restrictions, and there were affirmations. Paul thought women should aspire to a quiet life, but also commended the teaching ministry of Priscilla. There was legitimate debate about just what the scripture said. The debate about homosexual ordination is a debate about scripture. Even the teachers from the Covenant Network admit there are no affirmations of homosexuality in the scripture. The only debate is whether the clear condemnation of homosexuality as immorality is relevant today. The policy statement in the 70s framed the question with great precision: can the Holy Spirit speaking in our experience contradict what the Holy Spirit has already said in the scriptures? And this is the real question before the PCUSA today: How *does* the Spirit speak to us? The Jerusalem council did a lot of talking about what Paul and Peter had seen on the mission field. Had the Spirit contradicted in their experience what the Spirit had said in scripture? It was an intense discussion, setting current experience against received tradition. The new experiences raised the question, but did not settle it. That happened when James said, "Simon Peter has told how God first came to the Gentiles and made some of them his own people. This agrees with what the prophets wrote…" The Jerusalem council (and the debate about women preachers) was about whether the traditional interpretations of the scriptures were correct, not about whether the scriptures were still relevant in a modern, scientific society. The current debate is about that. - Paul Johnston Mon, 27 Apr 2009 20:45:04 +0100 http://www.pres-outlook.com/news-and-analysis/1-news-a-analysis/8719-fidelity-chastity-ordination-standard-remains-in-place-in-pcusa.html#comment-4625 Didn't we go through all this before with women as ministers? Essentially the same arguments pro and con. - steve wintermute Mon, 27 Apr 2009 14:01:32 +0100 http://www.pres-outlook.com/news-and-analysis/1-news-a-analysis/8719-fidelity-chastity-ordination-standard-remains-in-place-in-pcusa.html#comment-4624 Fundamentalism has cost all Churches credibility. Reliance on the Old Testament teachings are to be abhored. The New Testament Gospels clearly state that the Old Testament should not be relied on (see Second Corinthians, third chapter). Many teachings of the Old Testament lead Christians astray, such as, "all sorceresses should not be allowed to live". The same type thing that has happened to women of past history have been burned at the stake, drowned, and hanged. Homosexuals have suffered the same degredation because of the myth told of Sodom and Gomorrah where God supossedly destroyed an area because of their homosexuality. As people have become more Bible Literate, the Churches lose members. I have talked to many people, some of my own family, that will have no part of Church. It is too bad, that the Churches leaders cannot realize the truths of our Father God through the teachings of Jesus Christ. We will continue to lose members as long as we depend on swearing people into oaths that take away free will. Our Ministers really need to do a lot of Bible Study in the New Testament. - Clarence Oakley Mon, 27 Apr 2009 13:32:50 +0100 http://www.pres-outlook.com/news-and-analysis/1-news-a-analysis/8719-fidelity-chastity-ordination-standard-remains-in-place-in-pcusa.html#comment-4623 Jesus said, "A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another." How does Jesus love us? Who does Jesus love? How must the Church obey his command? Those intent on winning this debate have already lost it. There is only one thing needful... - Clint Roberts Mon, 27 Apr 2009 13:28:48 +0100 http://www.pres-outlook.com/news-and-analysis/1-news-a-analysis/8719-fidelity-chastity-ordination-standard-remains-in-place-in-pcusa.html#comment-4622 I think the words "once again" at the beginning of this article should encourage folks to give this a rest for a time. I doubt they will. I believe we should report the continued and growing loss of membership each time an article on this topic is written or brought up at GA or Presbyteries. I will continue to seek to be faithful in ministering within the PCUSA where I feel God has called me but I hope PFR's proposal receives a fair hearing as it would be better to take action thoughtfully instead of responding to being blown apart by the passage of something like "B" in the future. I want to thank Terri Schlossberg, Sue Cyre and many others who worked tirelessly to promote God's truth within this part of Christ's Body. I know there are many others on your team of workers---thank them all from those of us who have benefited so much from you and them. - Matt Ferguson Mon, 27 Apr 2009 12:45:42 +0100 http://www.pres-outlook.com/news-and-analysis/1-news-a-analysis/8719-fidelity-chastity-ordination-standard-remains-in-place-in-pcusa.html#comment-4621 Just for grins, I'd love to see a poll on how many of the Presbyteries that voted FOR the change were influenced by polity considerations. I mean, that the judgment about ordaining folks should come from the local people who know them best, and who can determine if they have the gifts and truly have a call from God. Some Presbyteries might have been moved to vote FOR the Amendment on that basis. I don't place myself on either side of the debate, so I can safely ask: Could our denominational rule-making be limiting the will of God? - Don McLean Mon, 27 Apr 2009 10:11:38 +0100 http://www.pres-outlook.com/news-and-analysis/1-news-a-analysis/8719-fidelity-chastity-ordination-standard-remains-in-place-in-pcusa.html#comment-4620 I am tired of the conservative branch of the church threatening us with leaving over this issue. Go! I am tired of being black-mailed. Those who say it is "self-evident" that the scriptures are against homosexuality (and therefore God is) need to do some deeper study. Institutionalizing prejudice against a part of the body of Christ makes me ashamed of our denomination, and goes against every loving word our Savior spoke. - Jefferson Hatch Mon, 27 Apr 2009 10:10:32 +0100 http://www.pres-outlook.com/news-and-analysis/1-news-a-analysis/8719-fidelity-chastity-ordination-standard-remains-in-place-in-pcusa.html#comment-4619 In response to Jeff Wagner's comment: I would hardly call this issue insignificant. We are determining whether we truly hold faith in the Bible's teaching or not. If our denomination is struggling with whether we should ordain those who willingly do not follow Biblical instruction we are struggling with the very CORE of our faith as Christians. The point of history that we are at is the determination of whether we are going to put our faith in God and HIS instructions or cater to the world/culture and what it tells us. I find it quite telling that every time our denomination begins a study of this issue they study the current culture, the current theology, but they never mention that they will deeply study what the BIBLE says about it. We CAN love the sinner and call sin by its name as Jesus did. - Greg Moore Mon, 27 Apr 2009 09:58:35 +0100 http://www.pres-outlook.com/news-and-analysis/1-news-a-analysis/8719-fidelity-chastity-ordination-standard-remains-in-place-in-pcusa.html#comment-4618 I am so hapy to know that we (the PCUSA) have successfully addressed all the important issues that threaten the world God has created and given us stewardship over that we can now focus on such an insignificant issue of whether we ordain people based on whether they are attracted to one person or another. I sincerely hope that those called to lead our denomination do so at the urging of a triune God, not to further their political agenda - gay, straight, evangelical, liberal or conservative. We are at a point in history where God is calling us to come together as a people, as a denomination, to further Christ's call in the world.Le us heed that call. - Jeff Wagner Mon, 27 Apr 2009 08:22:49 +0100 http://www.pres-outlook.com/news-and-analysis/1-news-a-analysis/8719-fidelity-chastity-ordination-standard-remains-in-place-in-pcusa.html#comment-4616 I am a United Methodist and this same issue comes up every year at Annual Conference here in Iowa. A lot of Methodists are worried this issue will split up our denomination also because there is a liberal faction and a conservative faction. The conservative faction has threatened to leave the United Methodist denomination and start their own. So far the homosexual lifestyle has been accepted and it will be interesting to see what the conservative faction of our denomination does now that gay marriage is legal. I don't feel I can cast stones because I have been divorced. Heterosexuals can commit just as many "sins" as a homosexual can - infidelity, adultery, promiscuity, and now divorce, so who should be casting any stones really so that is something the conservative factions should be thinking about when they say homosexuality is a "sin". Thank you for listening :) - Lu Patterson-Sisco Mon, 27 Apr 2009 05:57:48 +0100 http://www.pres-outlook.com/news-and-analysis/1-news-a-analysis/8719-fidelity-chastity-ordination-standard-remains-in-place-in-pcusa.html#comment-4614 For the full account from my friend Eloise May, see http://www.jlarue.com/wtbs.html: WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS ABOUT HOMOSEXUALITY March 18, 1997 Who am I and why am I writing this? The theologian Martin Buber once counseled a friend not to try to carry on a serious conversation with someone until you have heard their life story. Though my entire life story is not appropriate here, knowing a little about who I am and why I care is important. It will help you know where my biases are. It will help you identify your own biases. (We all have them. They come with the territory.) As you identify them, it will help you judge the truth for yourself. I am a heterosexual woman, meaning I am a woman sexually attracted to men. I am a baby-boomer, just turned 50. I am a Christian -- I believe that Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is my Savior. (In some Christian terminology, I am a "born again" Christian.) I am a "PK" -- a preacher's kid -- raised in a small presbyterian denomination that was begun in the 30's when the larger presbyterian church became "too liberal." My religious upbringing was mostly about correct doctrine, about being right about the Bible, about being "orthodox". I was educated in Christian schools, kindergarten through college, so every day I was taught the Scriptures. I believe that the Bible is to be taken seriously because it is the Word of God. After graduating from college I learned that one of my friends in high school "had become gay." I knew only that "gay" meant men having sex with each other and that I had been taught that it was a particularly bad sin. I knew this guy well (I thought), knew him to be a sincere Christian, and one of the nicest, most decent friends I'd ever had. It didn't make sense. Several years later, while visiting my parents, I made a point of looking him up. I was curious, but I also wanted him to know that I was still his friend, whatever he had done. I'd heard that he had been kicked out of his church and rejected by his family. Even without knowing much about it, this punishment seemed extreme and unfair. The story he told me broke my heart. What's more, what he told me and what I thought I knew the Bible to say did not add up at all. I knew I had to find out the truth about "being gay." (For the sake of simplicity, at the expense of accuracy, and with apology, I am using the term "gay" to mean gay men, lesbian women and bisexuals.) A final word and testimony It is not easy to give up a belief held all of our lives and taught by much of the church. It was not easy for the followers of Jesus to understand they were to love their enemies, but this is how he reinterpreted the law. It was not easy for them to understand why it was ok for the disciples to pick grain on the sabbath, but he challenged them to see the sabbath differently. It was not easy for Peter to understand that he was no longer prohibited from eating unclean meat and socializing with Gentiles, and that in fact he was being asked to bring the Gentiles into the family of God. Even though it turned his world upside down, he did it. Augustine wrote, "Whoever, therefore, thinks that he understands the divine Scriptures or any part of them so that it does not build the double love of God and of our neighbor does not understand it at all." (Christian Doctrine 1.35.40)41 Let us be true to the double love of God and neighbor, for that is what we are called to do for the sake of the love of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. - Skip Auld Mon, 27 Apr 2009 03:16:53 +0100 http://www.pres-outlook.com/news-and-analysis/1-news-a-analysis/8719-fidelity-chastity-ordination-standard-remains-in-place-in-pcusa.html#comment-4613 I believe the reason we have gotten to this stage, of near capitulation to the forces seeking to legitimize homosexual behavior, is that no one of substance or influence has, in a public forum, simply and forthrightly stated that every such attempt (to normalize homosexuality) is contrary to the teaching of Scripture. Someday in the not too distant future I believe there will be a loud rending sound, and a once-great denomination will be in a shambles, either because the prophetic word has been spoken, or because we have kept on trying to agree on what the Bible says, as if we didn't already know. - Daniel Jewett Sun, 26 Apr 2009 18:00:04 +0100 http://www.pres-outlook.com/news-and-analysis/1-news-a-analysis/8719-fidelity-chastity-ordination-standard-remains-in-place-in-pcusa.html#comment-4612 The report is no surprise to me. However, I am proud that our presbytery (WV) voted to approve new wording, especially in that I see the new wording as follwing Jesus Christ calling us to be open to all of God's children. Thought the debate will continue, the Church of Jesus Christ and our beloved Presbyterian Church will survive in spite of threats, migration, etc. - Richard Mobayed Sun, 26 Apr 2009 17:23:21 +0100