Comments for GA 2010: UPDATED & EXPANDED: Ordination standards to be debated, voted again throughout PC(USA) at http://www.pres-outlook.com , comment 1 to 28 out of 20 comments http://www.pres-outlook.com Thu, 09 Feb 2012 22:43:55 +0100 FeedCreator 1.7.3 http://www.pres-outlook.com/news-and-analysis3/52-ga-2010/10196-ga-2010-ordination-standards-to-be-debated-voted-again-throughout-pcusa.html#comment-5603 In the midst of all the words we share we might turn our attention to the words of a child. These words were written abover her artwork depicting the church. Her version reads: "The hrte OF LOVE will nevr stop. you will owes love someone evin wen you mad or sad." The edited verson of her message: "The heart OF LOVE will never stop. You (God) will always love someone even when you are mad or sad." Some say God is mad. Some say God is sad. In it all God's heart of love will never stop. God will always love. Shared by a young girl of faith! - blake spencer Wed, 14 Jul 2010 09:28:37 +0100 http://www.pres-outlook.com/news-and-analysis3/52-ga-2010/10196-ga-2010-ordination-standards-to-be-debated-voted-again-throughout-pcusa.html#comment-5596 It's ironic that the new moderator, Cynthia Bolbach, prays “Lord of majesty and mercy, we seek to follow where you lead, even if it’s not clear where that is. We know that with you, we can do no wrong.” If we can do nothing wrong, why is our denomination dying? I believe we are not following where He leads, and as such we are doing wrong. We lose the power of His Spirit to work mightily in and through us as by rejecting scripture. Oh, that we would be a denomination that *in Love* call people to repent from all sin and surrender our lives to Jesus. - Tim Cornelson Tue, 13 Jul 2010 08:26:40 +0100 http://www.pres-outlook.com/news-and-analysis3/52-ga-2010/10196-ga-2010-ordination-standards-to-be-debated-voted-again-throughout-pcusa.html#comment-5595 I'm struck by the quote of Cynthia Bolbach's prayer “Lord of majesty and mercy, we seek to follow where you lead,” even if it’s not clear where that is, she prayed. “We know that with you, we can do no wrong.” If we can do no wrong, why is our denomination yet another that is dying? - Tim Cornelson Tue, 13 Jul 2010 05:56:27 +0100 http://www.pres-outlook.com/news-and-analysis3/52-ga-2010/10196-ga-2010-ordination-standards-to-be-debated-voted-again-throughout-pcusa.html#comment-5593 I think there are sincere, deeply-held beliefs that animate the arguments on both sides. What I long for in my presbytery, and what has yet to materialize in any meaningful way, is a sustained conversation that gets beyond the soundbites of the presbytery floor. Such a conversation, if it is not dictated solely by the limited light of the ordination question, has the potential to at least move us beyond the same tired arguments of "bible" or "tradition" versus "inclusion" or "justice." Unfortunately, the only time we seem willing to really talk as a body is when we are forced to vote, and that necessarily limits the conversation and perpetuates the stereotyping and divisiveness that has characterized the debate for 30+ years. Should we vote on the ordination question? Yes. Should that be the end of the conversation? No. It never really is the end of the conversation, hence the predictable two-year ritual. The question for all of us is what kind of conversation it is going to be. Peace, Chris Joiner - Christopher Joiner Tue, 13 Jul 2010 05:13:35 +0100 http://www.pres-outlook.com/news-and-analysis3/52-ga-2010/10196-ga-2010-ordination-standards-to-be-debated-voted-again-throughout-pcusa.html#comment-5589 Chas...peace be with you. Obviously we have different life stories and have encountered Christ's power and presence in different ways. Despite differences....Christ's peace is deep enough and wide enough to heal all those who show up at the table. I trust God's power and grace to heal the church and each one of us. Peace be yours as I have come to know that it is mine. - blake spencer Mon, 12 Jul 2010 11:00:17 +0100 http://www.pres-outlook.com/news-and-analysis3/52-ga-2010/10196-ga-2010-ordination-standards-to-be-debated-voted-again-throughout-pcusa.html#comment-5586 Chas, I should have said this earlier. While I will dialogue with anyone, I have difficulty with personal attacks. Michael and Jane are friends of mine as are many on your side of the argument. They are all good people. Let's keep this dialogue on the high road and away from personal attacks, even in a blog. Blessings, Kyle - Kyle Walker Mon, 12 Jul 2010 09:17:44 +0100 http://www.pres-outlook.com/news-and-analysis3/52-ga-2010/10196-ga-2010-ordination-standards-to-be-debated-voted-again-throughout-pcusa.html#comment-5585 I have one more point of contention. I keep hearing how the church is blocking them from using their gifts. The church does no such thing. The gifts one has been given are freely used without ever having to step behind a pulpit or be given a title or any recognition. It is such a comical argument to say the church isn't allowing you to use your gifts because they won't ordain you because of a lifestyle you choose to live. This highlights that what the Michael Adee's and Jane Spahrs are truly seeking is a title and admonish so they can be puffed up with even more pride because they think of themselves as being so righteous and wonderful yet they fail to understand the meaning of the titles they so seek. The Adee's and the Spahrs are seeking the limelight of being in front of TV cameras and microphones extolling the supposed virtues of themselves while castigating those that disagree with them. They are worse than the Pharisees that Jesus encountered. - Chas Jay Mon, 12 Jul 2010 09:07:21 +0100 http://www.pres-outlook.com/news-and-analysis3/52-ga-2010/10196-ga-2010-ordination-standards-to-be-debated-voted-again-throughout-pcusa.html#comment-5584 Blake, there is no comparison between the treatment of women and blacks to the LGBT. LGBT is behavioral while people are actually black and female. Having the desire to have sex with someone of the same sex and acting out upon it is not the same. I tire of that comparison. Oh, and if you haven't figured out, I lived the gay lifestyle for many years. I was not being obedient to God's commandments and I had decide not to follow Him. Stop blaming others for the choices you make. If you continue to compare LGBT to women and blacks then don't complain when people compare gays to child molesters. Child molesters are the most hated people so why in the world would anyone choose to be one? You easily substitute the first words out with gay and that is what LGBT's have used as a defense for many years. If you and your friends want to talk about us living in different times, then you probably haven't actually studied history to know what the Roman Empire was like. All I have seen is disobedience from the MLP's, TAMFS and other groups as I pointed out in earlier postings. They are free to start their own denomination or go to the Metropolitan Community Church or the Episcopal Church. When I read their websites I kept seeing the sin of bearing false witness regarding the church by calling those that do not agree with them horrible names. All the other sins that the MLP's, TAMFS and their friends have displayed is what opened my eyes. I saw the fruits that they bore compared to the fruits that the accused of the MLP's. The accused were always kind, loving and welcoming to me. The MLP's fruit is toxic and divisive. People who love you have the courage to tell you that what you are doing is wrong. The people who always loved me wanted me to stop treating myself as a second class citizen because Christ went to the cross, died and rose again so I may be a prince in His Kingdom. It cost so much to give us salvation so being chaste in singleness seems like a rather small price to pay for what God gave up for us. - Chas Jay Mon, 12 Jul 2010 08:39:35 +0100 http://www.pres-outlook.com/news-and-analysis3/52-ga-2010/10196-ga-2010-ordination-standards-to-be-debated-voted-again-throughout-pcusa.html#comment-5583 The current story in our church is not a game in any form or fashion. It is a spiritual wrestling. We are wrestling for the very lives of precious people who have long been ignored. We've wrestled like this before all the while holding the Bible held up high. African Americans and Women in another time and era were once defined as second class children of God. But this is different this time many write, speak and sometimes yell. With the Bible tightly held up high the church officially defines God's LGBT children as second class children of God....Samaritans of our time. We have deeply gifted and faithful theologians who have done our exegetical homework to shed light on what the Bible says and doesn't say. Several of these GFT's (Gifted/Faithful Theologians) come from the "Evangelical" side of our family. The Bible tells the story of a spiritual wrestling. Jacob wrestled until a blessing was offered. The Bible tells our story then and now. - blake spencer Mon, 12 Jul 2010 07:03:20 +0100 http://www.pres-outlook.com/news-and-analysis3/52-ga-2010/10196-ga-2010-ordination-standards-to-be-debated-voted-again-throughout-pcusa.html#comment-5580 Kyle, thank you for your message. I feel for you and your group but I keep seeing disobedience by your group, such as what Soul Force did on Friday. To me, this is like playing a football game (I like football so I use it in my analysis). The rules are you must stay within the marked boundaries. The More Lights and other groups don't like playing within those boundaries and are complaining about them even though the boundaries are clearly marked. Those are the rules. If you don't like them, no one is forcing you to stay. You are not being oppressed and if you were, you would not be allowed to dissent as you have. No one is stopping you or the MLP's from starting your own denomination. What I do see is force being used by some to change the rules and when I think of the use of force, I think of rape. I took away from this week that those that want to change the standards do so because they are solely Presbyterian. Many of our churches are leaving because they are tired of this being forced every two years and we keep voting it down. They leave, as many more will now, because being Presbyterian is the name of the denomination, but what they are is a follower of Christ. I already see force being used against those that want to leave by not allowing them to keep their property. I don't see the fruits of the Holy Spirit coming from those promoting changing the standards. - Chas Jay Sun, 11 Jul 2010 21:27:35 +0100 http://www.pres-outlook.com/news-and-analysis3/52-ga-2010/10196-ga-2010-ordination-standards-to-be-debated-voted-again-throughout-pcusa.html#comment-5578 Kyle: Thanks for your response. I think offline conversation would be more productive. It's hard to carry on this conversation adequately through the volleys of reader response. Let's discuss those exegetical and theological issues about gay relationships, which are prior to the question of ordination. - Stuart Gordon Sun, 11 Jul 2010 18:27:30 +0100 http://www.pres-outlook.com/news-and-analysis3/52-ga-2010/10196-ga-2010-ordination-standards-to-be-debated-voted-again-throughout-pcusa.html#comment-5573 I am truly troubled! As I read what has been removed from the proposed ordination standards and see what remains, I am reminded of the story of the fox guarding the hen house. To me the new standard basically opens the door for the denomination to have standards that are not definable, consistent or measurable. This opens Pandora's box wider and causes members to question who they are and what they believe. It seems to me that we need to take a stand as a denomination and either endorse behavior such as infidelity and or sodomy among our pastors or continue to make them grounds for denying ordination and service in the UPC. Removing these criteria only license abuse by governing bodies with the old wink and a nod technique. Who among you can fairly determine my ability, my gifts, my calling, my commitment, or even my or suitability to serve God as an ordained minister? Who can tell if I have submitted joyfully to the Lord? That’s about all that is left to determine the suitability to serve as an ordained minister in the proposed standards outside of the required education and degree! These are all subjective and while one body determines a person is unsuitable because of infidelity or homosexual behavior another group decides it is acceptable in the UPC. We already know that different people believe the scriptures differently. This is truly a smokescreen aimed at dividing the denomination further. - Jim Dove Sun, 11 Jul 2010 14:03:30 +0100 http://www.pres-outlook.com/news-and-analysis3/52-ga-2010/10196-ga-2010-ordination-standards-to-be-debated-voted-again-throughout-pcusa.html#comment-5570 I guess I'm still confused, (I'm a reluctant member of the John Knox Presbytery). Why bother voting on the ordination standards? I thought we were free to do as we choose, regardless of the standards. It's not as if our presbytery will be disbanded, censured, punished or even mildly rebuked by the PCUSA. This isn't the civil war. The PCUSA has no Lincolnesque leadership quoting Matthew, .." a house divided against itself will not stand." Instead we fade in obscurity, our numbers dwindle daily. - Frank Frieberg Sun, 11 Jul 2010 07:23:08 +0100 http://www.pres-outlook.com/news-and-analysis3/52-ga-2010/10196-ga-2010-ordination-standards-to-be-debated-voted-again-throughout-pcusa.html#comment-5568 Chas, It grieves me to know you had those feelings around people with those organizations. Please accept my sincere apology for any way in which I have contributed to that. I will remember your words here when I see anyone who is part of your organization and shares your view on this matter. You are most welcome if you are ever in my area. I hope you know that. Kyle - Kyle Walker Sat, 10 Jul 2010 19:05:10 +0100 http://www.pres-outlook.com/news-and-analysis3/52-ga-2010/10196-ga-2010-ordination-standards-to-be-debated-voted-again-throughout-pcusa.html#comment-5567 This week was an eye opening experience to how very lost the PCUSA General Assembly is. Some of the opinions on here highlight the very sad ignorance. God dancing? No, God is weeping. As I stood by an escalator to help give directions to those seeking the One by One lunch, I was on the receiving end of visceral hatred. Those that wore rainbow scarves would give me ugly stares or look down so as not to see me. They hugged the wall as far away from me so they could not make contact with me. Yes, the sin that many of them state was the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah was the very sin prominently displayed when they wouldn't even acknowledge my presence. They were inhospitable, especially the older ones. What crime was I guilty of? Only stating that the gay lifestyle was not one in accordance with the Scripture and one I have wrestled with. Scarves were worn only to show their divisiveness and flaunt their arrogance of those of us that disagreed. Michael Adee proudly stated many times that he is an ordained elder and openly gay man. That is in direct disobedience to our current and historical standards that are based upon the Scripture. He and his friends celebrate their disobedience and do so with sinful pride. Oh, the sadness of such arrogant sin. It was the disobedience of Adam and Eve taking a piece of fruit that God had forbidden that separated us from Him. Such sin that the Scarf wearers would state is "not fair" or "inclusive" to keep us apart from God. How dare such arrogance question the Maker of the Universe? Jesus says "If you love me, obey my commandments." The scripture also says that slaves are to be obedient to their masters. So sad that this "New Theology" that the More Lights, TAMFS, Voices of Sophia and their host of friends is one of disobedience. The disobedience by them is celebrated and those that lead in this disobedience are hoisted up like pagan gods and called "enlightened." No, God does not dance at such disobedience. I pray that God will have mercy on the PCUSA for such sin. - Chas Jay Sat, 10 Jul 2010 18:21:45 +0100 http://www.pres-outlook.com/news-and-analysis3/52-ga-2010/10196-ga-2010-ordination-standards-to-be-debated-voted-again-throughout-pcusa.html#comment-5560 God is happy, laughing, filled with joy every time we love our neighbor as our self! God is singing and dancing and shouting AMEN every time we respond as the good neighbor! - blake spencer Fri, 09 Jul 2010 19:13:29 +0100 http://www.pres-outlook.com/news-and-analysis3/52-ga-2010/10196-ga-2010-ordination-standards-to-be-debated-voted-again-throughout-pcusa.html#comment-5559 The remnant, those who held high the banner of Christ in this vote are to be applauded, commended, and encouraged. Success is not what we are called to. Faithfulness is. God's Light, Jesus Christ, is sufficient. "More light" will only blind us to the truth. Let's get busy with things that are actually important and leave the hedonists to their naval gazing antics. - Glen Hallead Fri, 09 Jul 2010 17:57:17 +0100 http://www.pres-outlook.com/news-and-analysis3/52-ga-2010/10196-ga-2010-ordination-standards-to-be-debated-voted-again-throughout-pcusa.html#comment-5558 Like most Christians, I wish the world was a perfect place. Utopia is in the next life for those of us that follow God’s directions. Let’s not confuse what we want with what God wants. I follow what I believe God, His Son, Jesus and the Holy Spirit directs through the Bible, my pastor, or through prayer or perhaps through my nagging conscience. I try to listen when I pray for that is when He is closest. When my church decides an issue, it sometimes goes against my personal beliefs. I may not like the decision, but it doesn’t drive me from worshiping in my church. Sometimes, however, I am most discouraged when I hear other dedicated Christians from other churches ask me what’s going on in my denomination. Sometimes, I really am not able to answer appropriately because I really don’t understand myself. Life’s not fair. It has never been fair. Some are born rich Americans some destitute Mexicans, some mentally brilliant, others dim, some to praying Christian families, some to terrorist Muslim parents, and some are born beautiful while others are ugly. Many of us are not suited to be rocket scientists or medical doctors and some of us are not able to be roofers or olympians. As has been pointed out, some of us are even from the South, the area of the country with by far the most members in the Presbyterian Church USA. Most of us used to live in the Northeast and Midwest though. Being a pastor takes a special person. Most Christians just are not suited to take on God’s most important career. It’s just not fair, but its true! Character flaws among our pastors has already caused incredible heartache in the church community and I fear we are asking for more sorrow and division in our already fractured mainline denomination. Already we are nearly setting the record for lost members and attendees as the UPC-USA has declined significantly for decades. God works in strange ways! I need to understand how these General Assembly decisions are going to keep the lights burning and win more for Christ. We may feel better today, the gays and lesbians may be rejoicing, the illegal immigrants may feel rewarded for violating America’s laws, but please tell me how does God feel today? Is he smiling down on us? - Jim Dove Fri, 09 Jul 2010 17:01:20 +0100 http://www.pres-outlook.com/news-and-analysis3/52-ga-2010/10196-ga-2010-ordination-standards-to-be-debated-voted-again-throughout-pcusa.html#comment-5556 Stuart, I respect you Stuart even if you differ from me and will dialogue with anyone. I simply come to this conclusion at this point and stand in this place of discerned conscience. I hope you can respect that as well. You are right, this is a blog so my musings are my own and are in no way intended to attack anyone or any side. I just wanted to see more substance on the one side. If scripture was quoted on the one side, I missed it. If spiritual discernment was called upon from the same, I missed it. Perhaps that's my problem but the arguments were not compelling to me and I was truly a listener to them. The arguments seemed based in institutional preservation and were almost exclusively "what will they think?". That is a weak argument in any debate, especially one concerning ordination. As to my position since you asked, I find a very weak exegetical case for excluding those from ordination who are born gay and have chosen to live in monogamous, committed same gender relationship that were it not for civil prohibitions otherwise, would be lived in marriage. We can hardly exegete passages prohibiting women in leadership the way we do and use a different exegetical method when it comes to gay ordination. Just my opinion. In terms of the theology of our sexual conduct, I find it hypocritical if we delve into the same gender sexual behavior and do not cross examine heterosexual sex in the same ways. Granted, I don't want to be in anyone's bedroom but if we are going to jump into one ordained person's bedroom we had better be prepared to jump into them all. It is the result of my careful study of scripture, prayerful discernment, and experience dealing with young people who wish to end their life rather than to be gay have convinced me that our church has been on the wrong side of this issue and that the urgency of this means life and death for many. I really wish those who differ from me would be present in the places I have to be where young people only hear a church that says they should make a choice that is as impossible as changing the color of their skin and leaves them, for the most part, to "pray it away." Surely we ALL have a responsibility to do more than we do no matter our perspective and that is a collective sin we all share as a denomination. If you'd like to continue this conversation offline, I have no problem with further clarifying my position there. - Kyle Walker Fri, 09 Jul 2010 14:37:43 +0100 http://www.pres-outlook.com/news-and-analysis3/52-ga-2010/10196-ga-2010-ordination-standards-to-be-debated-voted-again-throughout-pcusa.html#comment-5555 Dear Kyle: Please do not make the mistake of ad hominem arguments. Your observations of the comments of commissioners at G.A. do not constitute a substantive engagement of the issue. Granted, this is a blog, not a journal, but I for one am weary of being painted, because I oppose this perennial amendment, with the broad brush of "fear." I serve in a very lively, growing, happily Reformed congregation. I support the church's policy which some seek to change. If you want the change, please make a case for it. I am more than happy to engage you in open, honest debate. As I said earlier, I wish we had received from GA the marriage amendments instead. It seems to me that the ordination debate distracts us from the substantive issues involved. I'm sure that there is nothing insidious about that, but it's frustrating that we say nothing about theological anthropology, nothing about being made in the image of God, nothing about being male and female; we're left yelling at one another about "justice" versus "the Bible." - Stuart Gordon Fri, 09 Jul 2010 13:53:31 +0100