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UPDATED: Fidelity-Chastity ordination standard remains in place in PC(USA) PDF Print E-mail
Written by Leslie Scanlon, Outlook national reporter   
Monday, 27 April 2009 00:54

The Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) has once again voted to uphold a requirement that those being ordained practice fidelity in marriage or chastity if they’re single — the third time the denomination has voted to retain the “fidelity and chastity” standard since it came into effect in 1997.

            On April 25, three presbyteries — Northern Plains, Sierra Blanca,  and Boise became the 86th , 87th , and 88th  presbyteries to vote not to change the standard, meaning that a majority of the denomination’s 173 presbyteries have voted “No” on the proposed amendment to the denomination’s constitution. A fourth presbytery, de Cristo,  voted that weekend to approve Amendment 08-B by a vote of 59 to 48, according to Stated Clerk Steve Bronson. Some presbyteries have yet to vote; under the rules they have until June 28 to do so. As of April 26, the ongoing vote stood at 69 “yes” to 89 “no.”

 But the result already had been determined: the “fidelity and chastity” standard will stay.

 Despite that, however, this vote has convinced virtually no one that the gay ordination issue is now dead and buried in the PC(USA). Why?

 For one reason, the tally was closer this time than ever before. As of late April, 27 of the 127 presbyteries that voted to keep “fidelity and chastity” the last time around (when the vote was taken in 2001 and 2002) this time supported the change. Many presbyteries in the South — for example, four of the five presbyteries in North Carolina — shifted. Two presbyteries, San Francisco and Sierra Blanca, flipped the other way.

 So even though a majority of the 173 presbyteries have voted to retain “fidelity and chastity,” there’s been a visible, almost visceral shift. When all the presbyteries have weighed in, the vote is expected to be closer than ever before.

 “I think the story of this ratification campaign are those flips,” said Michael Adee, national field organizer for More Light Presbyterians, which wants to remove the restraints on ordaining gays and lesbians. “It’s not a matter of if” the standards will change, Adee said. “It’s when.”

 Adee is not alone in seeing the shifts as significant. Many evangelicals, whose side prevailed in this campaign, are paying as much attention to the voting pattern as to the final outcome. Despite keeping “fidelity and chastity” intact, theirs does not feel like a celebratory mood.

 “It’s a baffling question — how exactly do we define a win?” asked Paul Detterman, executive director of Presbyterians for Renewal.

 If the PC(USA) holds on to the “fidelity and chastity” standard this time, “Gee, do you think it might come up again?” Detterman asked, laughing, the answer being obvious. “If the revisionist side were to win on this vote, it’s not going to be a situation where the conservatives sit back and say, `Oh, well, darn, the mood of the church has changed, I guess we’re going to have to live with it.’ There isn’t a clear win. The question is how do we help shape a future that holds as much of the denomination together as we can in the mission to which we are called?”

 So what does lie ahead?

- It’s virtually certain that presbyteries will again ask the General Assembly, which meets next in June, 2010, to remove “fidelity and chastity” from the Book of Order, although exactly what the overtures will say remains to be seen. Some say the proposal voted on this time around, the so-called “Amendment B,” may have been appealing because it not only asked that “fidelity and chastity” be deleted, but provided replacement language that those being ordained pledge “to live lives obedient to Jesus Christ, the Head of the Church.” In other words, it didn’t just get rid of the old standard, it offered up something new.

- Presbyterians for Renewal is preparing to circulate a proposal that would raise the possibility of creating a non-geographic synod — a way to build a bigger comfort zone for evangelicals who want to stay in the PC(USA) but oppose the ordination of gays and lesbians. Detterman said a proposal is being test-driven now and is likely to be released publicly by early June.

- The next General Assembly will hear reports from a cadre of special committees, including one considering language in the Heidelberg Catechism relating to homosexuality, and another considering issues of civil union and Christian marriage. Their proposals could impact the discussion too.

- And the churches will continue to watch how the issue of gay marriage plays out in the secular world. Four states — Massachusetts, Connecticut, Iowa, and Vermont — have decided to allow gay marriage. California — on-again, off-again on this one — is considering the issue again. And legislation or court rulings are pending in other states as well. A key point of discussion is how much changing views on homosexuality in the secular culture should or will influence the church, or whether the church should try to guide the culture, and in what ways. Those questions take on new weight at a time when many believe that western Christianity is living through a time of sea change, when the whole relationship of the church and the secular world seems to be in flux.
 

 A decision has been reached in this round of voting in the PC(USA), and the outcome is known. But answers to the bigger question of “what comes next” are anything but settled. Here are some of the nuances of that discussion.  .

 Don’t discount the outcome. Some Presbyterians have turned their scrutiny almost immediately to the details, to analyzing how close the margin was and trying to understand why so many presbyteries flipped. But others say the PC(USA) should not gloss over the significance of the overall vote. For the third time in a row, the denomination has voted to uphold the “fidelity and chastity” standard.

 “It has to be read as a positive outcome, that the church has decided to stay in the mainstream of the (Christian) church overall and not join a minority,” said Terry Schlossberg, who led the Presbyterian Coalition’s campaign to retain the current language. “It really is a minority of denominations and churches that have changed their sexual ethic. A win on this – the defeat of Amendment B – will show that the Presbyterian church has decided to stay in the mainstream.”

 Here’s another way to put it: how the PC(USA) voted this time is part of a much bigger story of Christian churches struggling to come to terms with homosexuality. The question of gay and lesbian ordination is rocking many denominations — the Episcopalians, Lutherans, and Methodists among them — and this Presbyterian vote also will be scrutinized in that more expansive context.

 The low turnout. In some presbyteries, the vote flipped. In others, the margin was closer than it has been in the past. And in many, the turnout was lower; fewer folks showed up to vote.

 “One of the most striking things to me about this round of voting is the general lack of interest in the discussion and in the vote itself,” said Michael Walker, theologian-in-residence at Highland Park Church in Dallas and an evangelical leader. “I have not sensed any great degree of urgency or interest in the process this time around.”

 Why ? Why was the turnout lower and the voting closer this time around?

 “We’ve decided there are as least as many reasons as there are presbyteries” for the changes, Schlossberg said.

 With widespread cutbacks in the media industry, fewer secular outlets are paying close attention to what’s happening within denominations, so there may be less coverage of the issue in local newspapers, she said. “We know there are churches that are unaware that the vote is happening. We have found that again and again.”

 In some places, conservative churches have left the PC(USA) for the Evangelical Presbyterian Church , which could mean fewer conservatives left to vote. Some of those congregations that left were prominent, and played leadership roles in rallying evangelicals during earlier votes involving gay ordination.

 And some Presbyterians are just tired of talking about gay ordination year after year.

 “We think fatigue is a factor, probably of some significance,” Schlossberg said. “People are asking why they have to keep delivering an answer to the same question over and over and over. There is an irritation factor at work.”

 Also, some evangelicals may have taken it for granted that their side would prevail. “I don’t think that there has been a great concern on the part of folks who are more conservative that it might actually pass this time around,” Walker said. “So they haven’t felt the need to go the extra mile to make sure that they are present for all the votes and participate in all the discussions.”

 Impact of culture. The Presbyterian vote does not take place in a vacuum. Even in the midst of this voting season, two more states — Iowa and Vermont — have taken steps to legalize gay marriage. Some see the closer vote in the PC(USA) as reflecting changes of views in the American culture, with some characterizing that as progress towards equality and fairness, others as religion caving in to the secular culture.

 “This shows there is a big shift in a positive direction toward accepting the equality of all people,” said Jack Rogers, a former General Assembly moderator who has spoken at congregations around the country after writing a book advocating that the church open its doors to gay ordination. “It appears the equality side will not prevail this time. But there is such a different atmosphere.”

 Some believe that attitudes are changing as gays and lesbians become more accepted – and more visible – in the country generally.

 People have responded, said Adee of More Light Presbyterians, to getting to know more gays and lesbians personally, to seeing same-sex couples show up with their kids at church. “Well, that melts hearts,” he said. “In some churches, no one blinks. In other churches, they go, `Oh, well, isn’t it nice to have a young family.’ For some churches it isn’t the young family they expected. It’s the family that shows up. … I think it brings out the better angels in all of us, when people begin to relax and say, `These are the people God has put in our care.’ ”

 In some places, the debate over gay sexual relationships also ignites discussion of the sexual practices of unmarried heterosexuals, raising questions of whether churches are being consistent.

 Day after day, pastors and congregations face questions about sexual ethics — probably most often when heterosexual couples, many of whom are sexually involved or living together, come to the church and ask to be married.

 “Churches really just have to decide,” Schlossberg said. “Are they going to just yield to what is the current trend of the culture, or will they try to speak the message of the gospel into it and figure out how they’re going to take their stance? …  Holding the standard is just critical to being able to do that with integrity.”

 The close vote this time in the PC(USA) and the discussion it’s sparking about what comes next raises the question of “how the sheep are being tended in the flocks of our denomination,” Schlossberg said. “What message are we proclaiming? What is the teaching that people are getting from the church that gives them an alternative to what they’re living with every day, hearing, reading, being infected by through the culture?”

 It won’t end here. Both progressives and evangelicals sense that this vote isn’t the end of the PC(USA)’s debate over homosexuality. More overtures asking for the removal of “fidelity and chastity” seem inevitable. Far from being deflated by the defeat this time, advocates of gay ordination say they’re ever-more convinced that change is just a matter of time.

 As Rogers put it: “I don’t have any question that is going to come. We will come to the position of treating all our members equally, and I will be rejoicing in that.”

 But those who favor the “fidelity and chastity” standard aren’t giving ground either. Presbyterians for Renewal, for example, is working on a proposal — likely to be made public early this summer — for some sort of an alternative approach that would allow those who favor “fidelity and chastity” to be aligned, possibly in a non-geographic synod, with others who hold similar views.

 “Folks are looking at the bigger picture,” Walker said. Regardless of how this vote turned out, he said, many don’t believe “it’s going to resolve the deeper disagreements that are prevalent in the PC(USA).”

 Voting on this issue time after time “is no longer a viable way to approach this conversation,” Detterman said.

 The underlying question — not resolved yet — is “What does it mean that God has put us together in this time and this place to do ministry together, when we clearly are holding differing views on such an important issue in the culture?”

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Your Responses (31)Add Comment
Response from Jerome Brown, April 30, 2009
New Bern, NC
There has been a lot written, spoken and debated about this issue over the pass 30 years and one thing has remained constance, THE WORD OF GOD. Now we want to re-write God's words to fit our life style (bibles without gender, etc). Did not God punish his people in the pass for making the slightest change to his instructions (expample: Moses tapped the rock to bring forth water more that once as God told him, and many other I know you have read.) As christian, we CAN NOT pick and choose the verses of the Bible we believe and dischard or change the ones that speak against something we think is OK. Are we smarter than God? We can tell him and the world what he really meant to say was certain SINS are ok or not SINS at all.

Please stop thinking that times are different from when the Bible was written, gay, lesbian, transgendered and bisexual people are not a "Today's Issue". God has dealt with it before, don't beleive me, go visit the folks living in Sodom! Would we have spent this much time and effort if the issue was ordaning Killers, Child Molesters, Robbers or other sinners? God hate all sin (not the sinners, for he sent his SON) Great and Small.

An outsider can not tell The Presbyterian Church General Assembly from the Democratic Convention, we are both talking about todays issues. What ever happened to being a people dedicated to the things of God, separated from the things of the world. Our commission is to spread the Good News, not to Re-write the story before we tell it. Why should I have to talk to my Pastor about "My sins" if "His or Her" sin can be voted away, maybe we should have something added to cover the wife beaters, drunks or drug abursers.

Let's stop trying to define Righteousness, no matter how we vote, who we ordain, what actions of man we accept, God is in control, and he will have the FINAL VOTE.
Response from A Concerned Voice, April 28, 2009
Pasadena, CA
LORD God, have mercy upon us as Your people! Show us how to love one another in the midst of our strife and denominational divisions. Send Your healing Spirit! Show us how to love You well. Show us how to love our neighbor. Show us how to extend mercy and grace. Show us how to be holy, even as You are holy. We need Your mercy at this hour. Show us how we might love each other at this time. Please forgive us our sins - the sins we commit against You, and the sins we commit against each other. Forgive us our pride, our arrogance, our self indulgence, our unkind words, our disobedience, and our lack of love. Forgive us the ways we do not uphold the peace, purity and unity of the Church. We are guilty. We as a denomination are guilty! Send forth a tsunami-size tidal wave of repentance, for our ill-will towards one another and our lack of awe, respect and love for You. Forgive us...and give us new life in Your Son. Amen. In the Name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
Response from Trevor Smith, April 28, 2009
Charlotte NC
Two thoughts occur to me.

The first is, 'How many times does our church have to consider this issue before we conclude that the Holy Spirit has spoken and it is time for us now to conform to God's leading?' To those who believe that ordaining gay, lesbian, transgendered and bisexual people is a "civil rights" issue, the answer is, 'Until we get it right.' For those of us who see it first as a biblical/theological issue we think that thirty plus years and four votes have given God the time and space needed to arrive at a position filled with both grace and truth - a place that conforms with the historic understanding of the biblical data and in conformity with the global church today.

The second thought I have however is this, if we do change our denomination's position we become immediately a church different not in degree but in kind from the church many of us were ordained into - and a church we would not have sought ordination into. The same would be true for many congregations as well. The road we are on right now is a 'win-lose' road. Would it not be far more charitable to all Presbyterians and a far better witness to the watching world to allow for a realignment of congregations into new configurations reflecting who we really are - historic, orthodox and evangelical on the one hand, progressive, liberal and inclusive on the other. Why not allow, as we did in 1983, a seven year window for congregations to choose which one best reflects who they really are and then, wishing one another God's richest blessing, continue in our ministries of prophetic witness, evangelism, justice and reconciliation?

Our Roman Catholic friends handle their differences by allowing for different orders united through their common allegiance to Rome. Could we not work out a similar structure that allows for the mutual support and love of one another through a common medical and pension plan, joint support of camps and conference centers, colleges and seminaries, while allowing for separate institutional identities on a par with the Jesuits, Augustinians, Franciscans and Benedictines? Such a scenario calls no one a loser and allows for both unity and diversity.

Just a thought.
Response from Matt Ferguson, April 28, 2009
...
I believe we need to prayerfully and thoroughly consider where we go from here and find a way out of this self-destructive cycle we are in.

I call on all of us not to continue doing the same thing. For the progressives this will be hardest because they believe God is leading them to change our current ordination standards by amending that part of our Book of Order. I think we need to hit the pause button until we can come up with some totally different way to address this division without our part of the Church.

I think we need to give a fair hearing to what some within Presbyterians For Renewal has been formulating in recent months, what I have heard called a "17th Synod Option". I know many have some misinformed ideas about the New Wineskins Association of Churches but let me state here that many (maybe even a majority) of us within NWAC still seek a way to remain faithful within the PCUSA. I know those who have been misled about NWAC and open to a 17th Synod type of solution will not like that being said but it is the truth and I would hope you would check it out for yourself before continuing to believe untruths about those who are very much in line with you on this.

But let's look at any other options out there and not just some 17th Synod proposal, let us consider anything other than continuing this destructive path we have been on. Let's get some very creative, out-side-the-box thinkers who truly represent folks on both sides of this debate. (I do not think those who are lukewarm middlers in this talk cannot do this work as whatever you come up with would have no chance of being satisfying (see TPUP).)

It is time for some totally different way forward, where nothing is off the table including going separate ways as we seek to be faitful to where we sense God is calling us. It would be far better to separate purposefully than to be blown apart. Hopefully the next GA will see this and not send out yet another attempt to amend our ordination standards and continue this destructive pattern but will set in motion the seeking of this a new way to address our very different visions of where God is calling us to go.

Response from Frank Stricklen, April 28, 2009
Pittsburgh, PA
Love covers a multitude of sins. May we all acknowledge our need for grace and stop pointing self-righteous fingers. And may love be the guiding principal in all our interactions with those in and out of our denomination.
Response from Frank Stricklen, April 28, 2009
Pittsburgh, PA
Love covers a multitude of sins. May it be a guiding principal to people on both sides of this issue.
Response from Alex, April 28, 2009
California
My Presbytery has conducted open forum discussions on this vote. What continues to trouble me is how Scriptural authority is continually undermined, and that current cultural/social norms seem to be informing people's conscience more than than consistency of Old AND New Testament Scriptural witness over the last 2000 years. It is striking to note how the Presbyterian church is growing and expanding in the rest of the world (outside of Europe/North America) and shrinking here. Jesus said to be "in the world, but not of the world". And, to be fair, the American Presbyterian church has many things to repent of, not just ignoring scriptural authority on matters of sexuality.
Response from Paul Johnston, April 28, 2009
...
Steve Wintermute suggested the homosexual's ordination debate is "Essentially the same arguments pro and con" as the women's ordination debate. Not exactly. The debate about women's ordination was a debate within the scripture. There were restrictions, and there were affirmations. Paul thought women should aspire to a quiet life, but also commended the teaching ministry of Priscilla. There was legitimate debate about just what the scripture said.
The debate about homosexual ordination is a debate about scripture. Even the teachers from the Covenant Network admit there are no affirmations of homosexuality in the scripture. The only debate is whether the clear condemnation of homosexuality as immorality is relevant today.
The policy statement in the 70s framed the question with great precision: can the Holy Spirit speaking in our experience contradict what the Holy Spirit has already said in the scriptures? And this is the real question before the PCUSA today: How *does* the Spirit speak to us?
The Jerusalem council did a lot of talking about what Paul and Peter had seen on the mission field. Had the Spirit contradicted in their experience what the Spirit had said in scripture? It was an intense discussion, setting current experience against received tradition. The new experiences raised the question, but did not settle it. That happened when James said, "Simon Peter has told how God first came to the Gentiles and made some of them his own people. This agrees with what the prophets wrote…"
The Jerusalem council (and the debate about women preachers) was about whether the traditional interpretations of the scriptures were correct, not about whether the scriptures were still relevant in a modern, scientific society. The current debate is about that.
Response from steve wintermute, April 27, 2009
kingsport, tn
Didn't we go through all this before with women as ministers? Essentially the same arguments pro and con.
Response from Clarence Oakley, April 27, 2009
Boiling Springs, S.C. 29216
Fundamentalism has cost all Churches credibility. Reliance on the Old Testament teachings are to be abhored. The New Testament Gospels clearly state that the Old Testament should not be relied on (see Second Corinthians, third chapter). Many teachings of the Old Testament lead Christians astray, such as, "all sorceresses should not be allowed to live". The same type thing that has happened to women of past history have been burned at the stake, drowned, and hanged.
Homosexuals have suffered the same degredation because of the myth told of Sodom and Gomorrah where God supossedly destroyed an area because of their homosexuality. As people have become more Bible Literate, the Churches lose members. I have talked to many people, some of my own family, that will have no part of Church. It is too bad, that the Churches leaders cannot realize the truths of our Father God through the teachings of Jesus Christ. We will continue to lose members as long as we depend on swearing people into oaths that take away free will. Our Ministers really need to do a lot of Bible Study in the New Testament.
Response from Clint Roberts, April 27, 2009
Naperville, IL
Jesus said, "A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another."
How does Jesus love us? Who does Jesus love?
How must the Church obey his command?
Those intent on winning this debate have already lost it. There is only one thing needful...
Response from Matt Ferguson, April 27, 2009
...
I think the words "once again" at the beginning of this article should encourage folks to give this a rest for a time. I doubt they will.

I believe we should report the continued and growing loss of membership each time an article on this topic is written or brought up at GA or Presbyteries.

I will continue to seek to be faithful in ministering within the PCUSA where I feel God has called me but I hope PFR's proposal receives a fair hearing as it would be better to take action thoughtfully instead of responding to being blown apart by the passage of something like "B" in the future.

I want to thank Terri Schlossberg, Sue Cyre and many others who worked tirelessly to promote God's truth within this part of Christ's Body. I know there are many others on your team of workers---thank them all from those of us who have benefited so much from you and them.
Response from Don McLean, April 27, 2009
Portsmouth, VA
Just for grins, I'd love to see a poll on how many of the Presbyteries that voted FOR the change were influenced by polity considerations. I mean, that the judgment about ordaining folks should come from the local people who know them best, and who can determine if they have the gifts and truly have a call from God. Some Presbyteries might have been moved to vote FOR the Amendment on that basis. I don't place myself on either side of the debate, so I can safely ask: Could our denominational rule-making be limiting the will of God?
Response from Jefferson Hatch, April 27, 2009
Branchville, New Jersey
I am tired of the conservative branch of the church threatening us with leaving over this issue. Go! I am tired of being black-mailed. Those who say it is "self-evident" that the scriptures are against homosexuality (and therefore God is) need to do some deeper study. Institutionalizing prejudice against a part of the body of Christ makes me ashamed of our denomination, and goes against every loving word our Savior spoke.
Response from Greg Moore, April 27, 2009
Charlotte, NC
In response to Jeff Wagner's comment:

I would hardly call this issue insignificant. We are determining whether we truly hold faith in the Bible's teaching or not. If our denomination is struggling with whether we should ordain those who willingly do not follow Biblical instruction we are struggling with the very CORE of our faith as Christians.
The point of history that we are at is the determination of whether we are going to put our faith in God and HIS instructions or cater to the world/culture and what it tells us. I find it quite telling that every time our denomination begins a study of this issue they study the current culture, the current theology, but they never mention that they will deeply study what the BIBLE says about it.

We CAN love the sinner and call sin by its name as Jesus did.
Response from Jeff Wagner, April 27, 2009
Louisville, KY
I am so hapy to know that we (the PCUSA) have successfully addressed all the important issues that threaten the world God has created and given us stewardship over that we can now focus on such an insignificant issue of whether we ordain people based on whether they are attracted to one person or another. I sincerely hope that those called to lead our denomination do so at the urging of a triune God, not to further their political agenda - gay, straight, evangelical, liberal or conservative.

We are at a point in history where God is calling us to come together as a people, as a denomination, to further Christ's call in the world.Le us heed that call.
Response from Lu Patterson-Sisco, April 27, 2009
Cedar Rapids, Iowa
I am a United Methodist and this same issue comes up every year at Annual Conference here in Iowa. A lot of Methodists are worried this issue will split up our denomination also because there is a liberal faction and a conservative faction. The conservative faction has threatened to leave the United Methodist denomination and start their own. So far the homosexual lifestyle has been accepted and it will be interesting to see what the conservative faction of our denomination does now that gay marriage is legal. I don't feel I can cast stones because I have been divorced. Heterosexuals can commit just as many "sins" as a homosexual can - infidelity, adultery, promiscuity, and now divorce, so who should be casting any stones really so that is something the conservative factions should be thinking about when they say homosexuality is a "sin". Thank you for listening :)
Response from Skip Auld, April 27, 2009
Durham, North Carolina
For the full account from my friend Eloise May, see http://www.jlarue.com/wtbs.html:
WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS ABOUT HOMOSEXUALITY

March 18, 1997

Who am I and why am I writing this?

The theologian Martin Buber once counseled a friend not to try to carry on a serious conversation with someone until you have heard their life story. Though my entire life story is not appropriate here, knowing a little about who I am and why I care is important. It will help you know where my biases are. It will help you identify your own biases. (We all have them. They come with the territory.) As you identify them, it will help you judge the truth for yourself.

I am a heterosexual woman, meaning I am a woman sexually attracted to men. I am a baby-boomer, just turned 50. I am a Christian -- I believe that Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is my Savior. (In some Christian terminology, I am a "born again" Christian.) I am a "PK" -- a preacher's kid -- raised in a small presbyterian denomination that was begun in the 30's when the larger presbyterian church became "too liberal." My religious upbringing was mostly about correct doctrine, about being right about the Bible, about being "orthodox". I was educated in Christian schools, kindergarten through college, so every day I was taught the Scriptures. I believe that the Bible is to be taken seriously because it is the Word of God.

After graduating from college I learned that one of my friends in high school "had become gay." I knew only that "gay" meant men having sex with each other and that I had been taught that it was a particularly bad sin. I knew this guy well (I thought), knew him to be a sincere Christian, and one of the nicest, most decent friends I'd ever had. It didn't make sense. Several years later, while visiting my parents, I made a point of looking him up. I was curious, but I also wanted him to know that I was still his friend, whatever he had done. I'd heard that he had been kicked out of his church and rejected by his family. Even without knowing much about it, this punishment seemed extreme and unfair.

The story he told me broke my heart. What's more, what he told me and what I thought I knew the Bible to say did not add up at all. I knew I had to find out the truth about "being gay." (For the sake of simplicity, at the expense of accuracy, and with apology, I am using the term "gay" to mean gay men, lesbian women and bisexuals.)

A final word and testimony

It is not easy to give up a belief held all of our lives and taught by much of the church. It was not easy for the followers of Jesus to understand they were to love their enemies, but this is how he reinterpreted the law. It was not easy for them to understand why it was ok for the disciples to pick grain on the sabbath, but he challenged them to see the sabbath differently. It was not easy for Peter to understand that he was no longer prohibited from eating unclean meat and socializing with Gentiles, and that in fact he was being asked to bring the Gentiles into the family of God. Even though it turned his world upside down, he did it.

Augustine wrote, "Whoever, therefore, thinks that he understands the divine Scriptures or any part of them so that it does not build the double love of God and of our neighbor does not understand it at all." (Christian Doctrine 1.35.40)41 Let us be true to the double love of God and neighbor, for that is what we are called to do for the sake of the love of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
Response from Daniel Jewett, April 27, 2009
Cincinnati, OH
I believe the reason we have gotten to this stage, of near capitulation to the forces seeking to legitimize homosexual behavior, is that no one of substance or influence has, in a public forum, simply and forthrightly stated that every such attempt (to normalize homosexuality) is contrary to the teaching of Scripture.
Someday in the not too distant future I believe there will be a loud rending sound, and a once-great denomination will be in a shambles, either because the prophetic word has been spoken, or because we have kept on trying to agree on what the Bible says, as if we didn't already know.
Response from Richard Mobayed, April 27, 2009
Huntington, WV
The report is no surprise to me. However, I am proud that our presbytery (WV) voted to approve new wording, especially in that I see the new wording as follwing Jesus Christ calling us to be open to all of God's children.

Thought the debate will continue, the Church of Jesus Christ and our beloved Presbyterian Church will survive in spite of threats, migration, etc.
Response from aggie, April 26, 2009
Houston, TX
Never give up on what is right. Women and non-white people were rejected for centuries and these same attitudes and arguments were used. Exclusion of people who are born attracted to the same gender is no more Biblically warranted than using Paul's writings to exclude women from the pulpit or using Ham as a justification to segregate black people.

Some say "but no, it is not about attraction, it is about sex" Well, let's begin to look at the forms of sex in straight relationships such as oral sex and other forms not mentionable here and those are equally condemned by a literal view of scripture. Let's look closer at divorce. How many pastors are serving having been divorced? Let's apply the levitical law evenly and admit that eating shrimp is as much of a Levitical abomination as homosexuality. I doubt the church is willing to be this consistent in its literal application of scripture.

Until we look at the fact that a group is being singled out and targeted by the church for discrimination using a skewed and inconsistent application of scripture, we will not get to reconciliation in our church no matter the vote.

Let's begin to come to terms with how we deal with the Bible and understand applying historical-critical methods to some parts of scripture while applying a literalist method to others is shameful and irresponsible.
Response from Moultrie D. Plowden, April 26, 2009
Walterboro, South Carolina
I have never understood why people of good faith, committed Christians all,who have an ageda that is unacceptable to the majority, would not remove themselves from the existing organization, form the Rainbow Presbyterian Church, rather than destroy the Presbyterian Church (USA). Is there an honest ansewer?
Response from BIll Moore, April 26, 2009
Tellico PLains, TN.
No christian denomination,in their right mind, Would ever vote for homosexuals in the pulpit.What is that saying to the youth of our day? Also, What bible will they use? The gay-lisas need a new birth experince. If any one is in Christ, he is a new creation, that old lifestyle must be gone. Can you picture it, a homosexual teachinh people to be christ like. I pray for the presbyterians to stay Bibical. I pastor Brown HIll Presbyterian in Tellico Plains Tn.
Response from Bill Simpson, April 26, 2009
San Antonio, Texas
It greatly saddens me, as a non-Presbyterian Believer, to see a once great Presbyterian Denomination have come to an historical moment in time when it is breaking news that "Fidelity-Chastity Ordination Standard remains in place...." Such a standard should be a "given" when Scripture is the basis for being a moral compass. However, when Pop-Psyhcology and the libido become the focus of a "theology", deterioration naturally follows.

I ran across the term, "Inculturation" several years ago. It is described as: "A person becomes as crazy as the institution expects him/her to be." When a denomination or an individual, drifts away from a Biblical foundation, "Inclulturation" is sure to follow. May God continue to strengthen and encourage those in the PC(USA), who are determined to buck the trend that leads to "Inculturation"!!!
Response from Dean Strong, April 26, 2009
Snohomish, WA
It seems to me that we have it backwards. The issue of gay unions has to be dealt with first. How can you allow gay people to be ordained when there is no way for them to be in a coventant relationship? Or does the church just not hold their sexuality to any kind of a standard, while heterosexuals are, in effect, bound by "fidelity and chastity?"

The Church must decide:
1. What the Bible says and what God's will is for people of same sex orientation. This can't be based on sentiment or feelings, it needs to stand on sound exigetical and theological grounds.
2. If the Church decides that based on this reasoning and revelation, committed homosexual unions are God's will, then it must define and provide for them.
3. At this point, the question of ordination can be addressed.
Response from Leigh, April 26, 2009
Olrando, Fl
Of the 27 presbyteries who changed their vote on "fidelity and chastity", how many member churches have left for the EPC since the last vote? I'm assuming that the change may have more to do with conservatives leaving, not people changing their mind. Do you have the numbers?
Response from Stewart Webb, April 26, 2009
Oswego IL
Has a voter trend study of GA been completed?? The issue could die in the GA and not go to the Presbyteries.

Major gay advocacy groups quietly admit that the gay marriage issue is only a political tool to normalize gay sex. The Gay community doesn't want marriage, nor do they want legally bound monogamy, which is what marriage is.

San Francisco presbytery a "NO"?? Holy Spirit at work.


Response from Roger Sidener, April 26, 2009
San Angelo, Texas
I am so tired of this continual battle. I am evangelical and conservative a pastor and former missionary to Mexico who believes the only reason our denomination continues this self-defeating controversy is because we have rejected the Bible as the divinely inspired Word of God. The only thing holding this denomination together today is the presbytery's
ownership of the buildings If that barrier were dropped many would leave peacfully and the "More Light" members could fully control the destiny of the denomination.
Response from John Stuart, April 26, 2009
Knoxville, TN
Luke 24:45-48Then Jesus opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures. He told them, "This is what is written: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, and repentance and forgiveness of sins will be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. You are witnesses of these things.”

The Motion to remove Amendment B has been defeated for a third time and we are all witnesses to the wounds that this has cost our beloved denomination. We have crucified ourselves with polity and policy, but this time there is no victory or resurrection for the Body of Christ.

The arguments will continue and as usual each side will affirm their positions. The church will be torn asunder and the motto for the next GA should be something like: “Battling Again in 2010.”

Repentance and forgiveness of sins will be as rare as unity and connectionalism. The letters PCUSA may as well stand for “Putting Congregations Under Separation Anxiety” as we will all be in a battle zone for the next three years.

And as we rip ourselves apart, the world looks desperately for a Christ who cannot be seen because of all the Christians, on both sides, who get in the way.

Maybe instead of looking to theologians and scholars, radicals and reactionaries, lobbyists and laymen to help formulate our opinions, we should all retreat to an Upper Room and ask Jesus to open our minds. Our hearts are closed to each other and only His truth will set us free.

If we expect to be witnesses of the faith, then we have to try something different. This going back and forth to the General Assembly and Presbyteries is mass suicide for the denomination. It’s also a definition of insanity - of doing the same thing again and again, expecting the results to be different.

We need a Year of Discernment and to be open minded to Christ. I’m ready to try something new – aren’t you?

Prayer:Lord Jesus, help us. Amen.

John Stuart is the pastor of Erin Presbyterian Church in Knoxville, Tennessee.

Response from Charles Mace, April 26, 2009
Cincinnati, OH
I know it won't happen, but GIVE IT UP!
Enough already, we've voted three times and confirmed it three times.
Response from Stushie, April 26, 2009
Knoxville, TN
The lower turnout for the votes could mean that conservatives have reached their breaking point. If this comes up before the GA of 2010 and presbyteries are asked to vote again, it will break the denomination entirely.



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